Can you instantly cycle your new filter this way? - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 32Likes
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 07:56 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 707
Although I know it could be done and has been done over and over I never understood the need to "rush" a cycle and put fish in.

For the last 10 years or so, I plant the tank, let them get settled, move things around to my likening and do a larger weekly water change. Usually around 4 weeks I slowly had fish until I eventually get up to the stock I want. I've never had a problem doing it this way.

I don't add any ammonia or BB starter and don't worry about a formal cycle. There is bacteria on the plants as well as some ammonia from dying leaves etc.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Asteroid is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 08:10 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,365
The notion of an "instant-cycle" with established media is so misleading- especially for those new to aquarium keeping- who are still unfamiliar with the nitrogen cycle. I wish it would go back where it came from.
Better that newcomers learn that cycles depend on many factors that they will, in time, be able to respond to according to the situation. Until then, proceed with caution because there is much more to the nitrogen cycle then the API ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate test will tell you.
Like it has been mentioned, it takes months for a cycle to fully establish itself in aquarium- I have heard 3 months at temperatures above 75 degrees, more for temps below this margin. Until then, its best to proceed with caution.
I approach all my tanks differently according to their cycle:
I have a discus tank that has been running continuously for 10 years. I know that because it has such a well-established bio-filter, I can wash my mechanical cartridge in tap water every 2 weeks without a blip in its cycle. ~ wouldn't recommend this on a newly established bio-filter.
My 180 is 2 years old; but, the bio-load is heavier. With this tank I have 2 - FX 6 filters. I clean one filter every 2 months- completely- outside hosing it down: mechanical and biological. After cleaning I am cautious as the other filter reseeds the cleaned one- doing a water change of 50% on the 3rd and 6th day. ~ This method of cleaning and maintenance of the filters was not haphazard: I tested my water parameters and adjusted accordingly.
I have 2 -30 gallon tanks that have been established in the last year. I am much more careful with their cleaning. The mechanical consists of four sponges- I clean 2 every 2 weeks.
There is much more to the nitrogen cycle than a 0/0/5-20 reading.
Pocho likes this.

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
Discusluv is offline  
post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 09:15 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
cl3537's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 531
There is more bacteria living on surfaces (substrate, hardscape, biomedia) than in filter water. It is best to take a few pieces of biomedia or a small bag of biomedia placed in a mature filter for a week then put in a new tank to jump start the cycle. It works much faster than doing a fishless cycle (on the order of a week or two) instead of a month or three.
Does filter water with mulm contain bacteria? (Probably yes but not in as high concentrations as on the surface of biomedia).

Now when you talk about 'Instant Cycling' that is a very subjective dicussion. To me cycle is done when your BB in your tank can process more Ammonia than you are ever introducing into the tank so that you never test the presence of Ammonia or Nitrite, other people have different definitions.

One thing is certain adding filter water and Mulm to your new filter if that is all you have is a good idea, but any mature filter(months) should be able to handle the removal of 1/4 of the biomedia to place in a new filter which IMO would be faster and more efficient.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
cl3537 is offline  
 
post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 09:23 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
AbbeysDad's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Central New York, USA
Posts: 1,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
The notion of an "instant-cycle" with established media is so misleading- especially for those new to aquarium keeping- who are still unfamiliar with the nitrogen cycle. I wish it would go back where it came from......

It came from professionals with decades of experience in tropical fishkeeping, breeding, and selling. In the simplest terms 'Instant cycle' is nothing more than providing sufficient beneficial biology in a new tank to deal with the ammonia generated by a limited initial bio-load (diluted by the fresh, pure water in a new setup and augmented by plants).

It's so logical it's surprising to me that the merit is questioned.

Tank On, Mike-
60g Marineland Community, Finnex Planted+ 24/7, Silica (pool filter) sand.
10g, 29g, & 37g fry grow out tanks, 110g stock tank.


What came first, the chicken or the egg. It was the egg, but not the egg of a chicken.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
AbbeysDad is online now  
post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 09:59 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
There is more bacteria living on surfaces (substrate, hardscape, biomedia) than in filter water. It is best to take a few pieces of biomedia or a small bag of biomedia placed in a mature filter for a week then put in a new tank to jump start the cycle. It works much faster than doing a fishless cycle (on the order of a week or two) instead of a month or three.
Does filter water with mulm contain bacteria? (Probably yes but not in as high concentrations as on the surface of biomedia).

Now when you talk about 'Instant Cycling' that is a very subjective dicussion. To me cycle is done when your BB in your tank can process more Ammonia than you are ever introducing into the tank so that you never test the presence of Ammonia or Nitrite, other people have different definitions.

One thing is certain adding filter water and Mulm to your new filter if that is all you have is a good idea, but any mature filter(months) should be able to handle the removal of 1/4 of the biomedia to place in a new filter which IMO would be faster and more efficient.
I have always heard the opposite, that there is more beneficial bacteria in and around the filter- where the oxygen is highest.



This:
[quote]
"The good bacteria can live on any surface in the aquarium. However, like all organisms ever, they concentrate their populations where their limiting factors are best met. In an aquarium the two things that are the most limited for the bacteria are food and oxygen. Filters provide flow which provides food and oxygen. The surface area of the biomedia provides a surface for the bacteria to grow on where they can sit and allow the oxygen and food to come to them. At the end of the day it is not the biomedia itself that is anything magical, it is nothing more than surface area per volume. The bacteria are happy to grow on any surface, but they do not simply spread out evenly throughout the aquarium. Although any surface area in the tank (decor, glass, substrate, etc.) are otherwise perfectly acceptable, they do not have the same flow as the filter and therefore will not house significant colonies of bacteria."

Link with further information on filter/substrate bacteria:

Cycling and Understanding the Good Bacteria | Advanced Aquarium Concepts

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
Discusluv is offline  
post #21 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 10:13 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post
It came from professionals with decades of experience in tropical fishkeeping, breeding, and selling. In the simplest terms 'Instant cycle' is nothing more than providing sufficient beneficial biology in a new tank to deal with the ammonia generated by a limited initial bio-load (diluted by the fresh, pure water in a new setup and augmented by plants).

It's so logical it's surprising to me that the merit is questioned.
The problem is that newcomers take the "Insta-cycle" term literally. That they just put in the cycled media and their tanks are instantly cycled. See how that term can be misconstrued by a person new to the hobby with little understanding of the nitrifying process.

It also gives the impression ( to the newcomer) that all tanks are the same in this process with cycled media- which is certainly not true. The last tanks I cycled, 2 -30 gallons, I used cycled media from my tank that has been established for many years and it still took 2 weeks. My 180 took 9 days.

Hardly an instant cycle.
Pocho likes this.

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
Discusluv is offline  
post #22 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 10:21 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 707
Here I'm forced to agree with cl3537. In most aquariums the surface area the filter can house is tiny compared to the tank substrate, not to mention hardscape, surfaces and in our case all the plants. The only exception might be if your using a large canister on a small nano.

There were many times over the years where I did a water change and forget to plug the filter back in sometimes for days. All the bb was dead and the tank did not cycle. Trying removing all of your substrate and see what happens

Once the tank matures the filter is primarily a flow device. I usuallly fill it with filter foam for mechanical filtration and have very little biomedia in it.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Asteroid is online now  
post #23 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-15-2019, 11:58 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,365
Another thing to consider, which this article addresses, is that surface area is only one of the factors that must be met in order to harbor the growth of nitrifying bacteria. If the other two aspects are not sufficiently met, food and oxygen, then surface area alone will not be enough to sustain the bacteria in high numbers. Certainly, there is nitrifying bacteria throughout the aquarium; but, the larger percentage of bacteria is in the filter itself.

The author explains this:
[Quote]
Surface area doesnít equal bacteria. Bacteria need much more than surface area to survive, thrive, and establish colonies. Many people focus only on surface area, which is the most ample resource bacteria have, there is no reason at all to think this alone would be a determining factor to where they live. They will grow where their most limited resources are found. Those resources are oxygen and food, both provided by flow, which in any tank is highest in the filter.

In an established aquarium, one that is over 3 months, as @somewhatshocked explained earlier, you have a greater concentration of biofilm and aufwuchs ( microorganisms and crustaceans) that are also important to the maintenance of a healthy aquatic environment- offering alternative food source for shrimp, snails, fish, etc...


Additionally, researchers have found multiple bacteria necessary to a healthy eco-system that go far beyond what we are able to test for. Again, you will see in this article that the filter is the primary site of bacteria for nitrification.

[Quote]:
Researchers in Germany and Switzerland used next generation sequencing to study an active aquaponics system. They sampled a biofilm from the side of the tank, the fish excrement, the plant roots, and the inside of the tank filter, called a biofilter. The biofilter is where much of the nitrifying bacteria live, and where the bulk of the ammonia-to-nitrate conversion takes place.
https://sciworthy.com/new-study-elab...-already-know/

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
Discusluv is offline  
post #24 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 01:37 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
cl3537's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
I have always heard the opposite, that there is more beneficial bacteria in and around the filter- where the oxygen is highest.
You misunderstood my post entirely I'll rephrase. The best source is filter biomedia, second would be the filter sponges. Baceria live on surfaces, much less concentrated in the water column, that is why filter water/mulm is not the best choice nor is just old aquarium substrate for new filter seeding.

Nobody goes around trying to test if driftwood has more bacteria on it than filter water that is a silly comparison both of those are not the best sources for cycling a new aquarium but both could be more beneficial than nothing.
Discusluv likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
cl3537 is offline  
post #25 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 01:58 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 707
I actually misunderstood the post as well. Once a tank matures there is more BB in the tank itself between the substrate, plants, hardscape then there is in the actual filter in most cases as indicated in post #22


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Asteroid is online now  
post #26 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 02:32 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
You misunderstood my post entirely I'll rephrase. The best source is filter biomedia, second would be the filter sponges. Baceria live on surfaces, much less concentrated in the water column, that is why filter water/mulm is not the best choice nor is just old aquarium substrate for new filter seeding.

Nobody goes around trying to test if driftwood has more bacteria on it than filter water that is a silly comparison both of those are not the best sources for cycling a new aquarium but both could be more beneficial than nothing.
Okay, I understand you now.

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
Discusluv is offline  
post #27 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 06:48 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 67212
Posts: 431
[quote=Discusluv;11217041]I have always heard the opposite, that there is more beneficial bacteria in and around the filter- where the oxygen is highest.



This:
Quote:
"The good bacteria can live on any surface in the aquarium. However, like all organisms ever, they concentrate their populations where their limiting factors are best met. In an aquarium the two things that are the most limited for the bacteria are food and oxygen. Filters provide flow which provides food and oxygen. The surface area of the biomedia provides a surface for the bacteria to grow on where they can sit and allow the oxygen and food to come to them. At the end of the day it is not the biomedia itself that is anything magical, it is nothing more than surface area per volume. The bacteria are happy to grow on any surface, but they do not simply spread out evenly throughout the aquarium. Although any surface area in the tank (decor, glass, substrate, etc.) are otherwise perfectly acceptable, they do not have the same flow as the filter and therefore will not house significant colonies of bacteria."

Link with further information on filter/substrate bacteria:

Cycling and Understanding the Good Bacteria | Advanced Aquarium Concepts
The oxygen level is same in tank water as it is in canister if your using a standard canister input strainer. Now use a surface skimmer/run off and oxygen level will go up through canister because of that.

But still to me if had to choose managing same fish load in a tank with either a couple of circulation pumps and a well set up gravel bed or a canister of similar flow rate in a bare bottom tank Iíd pick substrate bed every time because when set up right no canister can touch it as far adaptability to changing bio loads because shear volume of surface area that is available. With a single canister/filter itís juggling act.

But good thing is most donít have to choose and will have both subtrate and external/internal filters, best of both worlds. For me subtrate is home base for bio and other filters are just there mainly to pick up debris and remove them from tank and give you a way easily add a bag of carbon, purigen etc for quick clean up.

Now add some well established/rooted plants to a substrate bed and there is not canister or hob that can touch it, I donít care what specialized bio media you add to it or what oxygen level or what the flow/turnover rate through filter is.
DaveKS is online now  
post #28 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 08:18 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 2,365
[quote=DaveKS;11217235]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
I have always heard the opposite, that there is more beneficial bacteria in and around the filter- where the oxygen is highest.



This:


The oxygen level is same in tank water as it is in canister if your using a standard canister input strainer. Now use a surface skimmer/run off and oxygen level will go up through canister because of that.

But still to me if had to choose managing same fish load in a tank with either a couple of circulation pumps and a well set up gravel bed or a canister of similar flow rate in a bare bottom tank Iíd pick substrate bed every time because when set up right no canister can touch it as far adaptability to changing bio loads because shear volume of surface area that is available. With a single canister/filter itís juggling act.

But good thing is most donít have to choose and will have both subtrate and external/internal filters, best of both worlds. For me subtrate is home base for bio and other filters are just there mainly to pick up debris and remove them from tank and give you a way easily add a bag of carbon, purigen etc for quick clean up.

Now add some well established/rooted plants to a substrate bed and there is not canister or hob that can touch it, I donít care what specialized bio media you add to it or what oxygen level or what the flow/turnover rate through filter is.
I havent seen any documented evidence of this as you are describing. But, I have seen evidence of the opposite. I am willing to change my mind, of course. Have any corroborating evidence?

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
Discusluv is offline  
post #29 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 08:58 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 67212
Posts: 431
[quote=Discusluv;11217245]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveKS View Post
I havent seen any documented evidence of this as you are describing. But, I have seen evidence of the opposite. I am willing to change my mind, of course. Have any corroborating evidence?
No documentation/papers for you sorry, all just IMHO and is based on my experience in school of hard knocks over last 33+ years.
DaveKS is online now  
post #30 of 70 (permalink) Old 06-16-2019, 10:31 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
theDCpump's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by AbbeysDad View Post
If you have one or more established healthy tanks it makes no sense to setup a new tank with bottled ammonia and wait 6-8 weeks for a cycle to happen.

There's absolutely nothing inhumane about properly seeding a new tank with beneficial biology, fast growing floating plants, and using common sense about stocking. I've done it many, many times and never lost a fish!

It's pointless to debate something that's been done successfully so many times.
Agreed.

I take a new tank, fill it with 1/3, 1/2, or 2/3rds old tank water from another tank that may be slightly cleaner or dirtier.
Next, add a few existing "seeded" sponges (of the many) from stacked foam media trays or compartments, and lastly add new fresh treated water I mixed from a 55gal (tap+declor).

-Partial/percentage used sponge from old filter.
-new water +old water ratio.
-add bio starter just to be sure.
-sometimes no Quick start bio-in-a-bottle is needed at all. A bit can help though.



We can even start the newer filter on a small tote and get it running off to the side with dirty water and QuickBio products.
This is just to get a mock-up running with the new filter while you keep working.
It all depend if it is a 10gal or 100gal.
Time.

I'd personally let a friend run his new filter with my dirty water change water, after the heavy stuff settles as well as no fish yet.
-run my terd water for a day or so on the new tank, change that water and filter after the terd water clears, add Quickbio if desired.

So many methods.
theDCpump is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome