Dosing like a Boss! How do I fix this!>>!>!?? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Dosing like a Boss! How do I fix this!>>!>!??

I've been keeping a maintenance log with very detailed dosing history. Using EI with DTPA iron daily. Soft water is prepped with significant Equilibrium and Epsom Salt. Everything **should** be there, but it just isn't.


Daily DTPA Fe in 1.5x recommended dose. I thought it could be calcium deficiency but tap water GH=4 and Equilibrium has calcium.. dosed to GH=8+. "On paper" this shouldn't be a calcium deficiency. Magnesium from Epsom Salt. Everything is pearling like crazy, drop checker, pH, and CO2 should be in order.

Please check my log (signature) to see exactly what I am doing and then try to explain this deficiency. I believe everything in the tank exhibits some variation of whatever is missing from this sword. If I can fix this, I can fix my tank, but I'm dosing everything and then some. Tank pearls like soda.

There is plenty of new growth. New sword leaves are see through and old leaves on other plants usually "give up", exhibit chlorosis. (You can see the Hygro Siamensis next to the sword to see what I mean.. new leaves are clean for about 2 weeks then they give up, sorta die, then get algae covered.)

I don't get it.



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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 04:30 PM
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Same issue here going to follow along and learn something hopefully.
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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 04:45 PM
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Hi @ChrisX,

Can you get me a picture of the red plant to the left of the swordplant in the above picture.

I don't want to know what you are dosing at the moment, rather what are the water parameters of your tank?

pH -

dKH -

dGH -

nitrates (ppm of NO3) -

Lastly do you have CO2? Water softener? RO/DI water?

Roy_________
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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @ChrisX,

Can you get me a picture of the red plant to the left of the swordplant in the above picture.

I don't want to know what you are dosing at the moment, rather what are the water parameters of your tank?

pH -

dKH -

dGH -

nitrates (ppm of NO3) -

Lastly do you have CO2? Water softener? RO/DI water?
pH 6.8 (from 8.2 degassed)
dKH = 4 (tap is 2, add .5t/10g to raise to 4ish)
dGH = 8.5 (tap is 4, use Equilibrium and Epsom Salt to reach 8-9)
nitrates = 20 (beginning week) - 30 (end week)- I test nitrates and phosphates at end of each week.
CO2, yes of course. All the information is in the original post and maintenance log.

Will show some more pics of red plants. The ammania senagalensis is new within two weeks. Top shows new red growth, old leaves are on verge of shrivel and getting algae. This might be because of environment change, but my long term plants show similar pattern.


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Last edited by ChrisX; 02-06-2019 at 05:25 PM. Reason: asdfsa
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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 08:22 PM
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Hi @ChrisX

OK, let's talk this through. It is the new growth that seems to be most effected on the swordplant, that would indicate a non-mobile nutrient. What are the non-mobile nutrients? Calcium, sulfur, boron, copper, iron, manganese, zinc. Which of those nutrients can cause "clear" leaves with little chlorophyll.

Chris, does your CO2 run 24/7 or is in on a solenoid / timer?

Roy_________
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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @ChrisX

OK, let's talk this through. It is the new growth that seems to be most effected on the swordplant, that would indicate a non-mobile nutrient. What are the non-mobile nutrients? Calcium, sulfur, boron, copper, iron, manganese, zinc. Which of those nutrients can cause "clear" leaves with little chlorophyll.

Chris, does your CO2 run 24/7 or is in on a solenoid / timer?
Its on a solenoid. My spreadsheet is pretty comprehensive with all the info. At lights on pH is 6.8, lights off at 7.0. So it drops 1.4-1.2 through the day.

It might be a non-mobile, I thought calcium. But I'm using Equilibrium at a moderate dose, and its made to reconstitute RODI water.. so "on paper" its hard to believe there is a calcium deficiency. If there is a deficiency, it must(?) be something not in Equilibrium or CSM+B.

My thinking is that something that is being added is "blocking" or binding with something the plants need. Perhaps an overabundance of Magnesiium blocking Calcium absorption??? Maybe the tap water KH=2 has no calcium(?) its all magnesium and adding Equilibrium does nothing to address an incorrect ratio? Or possibily the Equilibrium EDTA calcium is ineffective when water degasses?

The chlorosis on established plants seems to suggest something else, or at least a mobile issue.


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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 08:46 PM
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Its on a solenoid. My spreadsheet is pretty comprehensive with all the info. At lights on pH is 6.8, lights off at 7.0. So it drops 1.4-1.2 through the day.
Hi ChrisX,

I think you meant that the pH starts at 8.2 and drops to 7.0 over the course of the day? What time of day are your dosing your iron (CSM+B / DTPA)?

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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi ChrisX,

I think you meant that the pH starts at 8.2 and drops to 7.0 over the course of the day? What time of day are your dosing your iron (CSM+B / DTPA)?
Around lights on in morning. Sometimes before, sometimes a bit after, like 15 minutes.

Regarding CO2, I meant that its 6.8 at lights on, I turn it off a couple hours before lights off, and it rises to 7.0 before lights dim. Still crazy pearling at that hour.


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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 09:11 PM
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Quote:
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Around lights on in morning. Sometimes before, sometimes a bit after, like 15 minutes.

Regarding CO2, I meant that its 6.8 at lights on, I turn it off a couple hours before lights off, and it rises to 7.0 before lights dim. Still crazy pearling at that hour.
Hi ChrisX,

OK, I understand what you are doing with the CO2 - thank you for clarifying for me.

Looking at the spreadsheet I see you have the ppm's of N, P, K, computed but not the iron. I assume you are dosing 1/8+1/16+1/32 teaspoon of CSM+B - what is the 10 ml below that?

Roy_________
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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 10:34 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi ChrisX,

OK, I understand what you are doing with the CO2 - thank you for clarifying for me.

Looking at the spreadsheet I see you have the ppm's of N, P, K, computed but not the iron. I assume you are dosing 1/8+1/16+1/32 teaspoon of CSM+B - what is the 10 ml below that?
The ml is how much liquid represents a full EI dose of the dry fertz. For instance, a full EI dose of CSM+B for my tank is 10ml.

But if you see the dosing strategy below, you will see that I'm only dosing half for nitrates and phosphates (and extra K2So4 to add more potassium because of lower KNO3 dose), which is recorded as actual ml delivered.

This is done so that nitrates and phosphates stay in the 20-30ppm range and was derived experimentally based upon what the tank needs weekly. The tank is getting full micros and Fe.

The only macro that *might* be low is potassium as I don't have a test for it. But based on the math, there should be around 6 ppm 3x weekly of potassium.


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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 11:13 PM
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There's a helluva lot more K than that if your raising GH 4 more points with Equilibrium, that's close to 50 ppm right there


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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 11:38 PM
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Sounds to me like you have real nutrient soup going. The problems are most likely induced deficiencies caused by too much of something, rather than a shortage

The fact that you're seeing both old growth (mobile) and new growth (immobile) problems would support the theory. Because you rarely see more than one true deficiency at a tinme (Liebig's law)

I think what you need is a big 80% water change and a drastic reduction.

Go back with 20-25 ppm NO3 per week, 5-6 ppm PO4, K from those two is plenty.

Ditch the Equilibrium, add 5-6 ppm MGSO4, probably dont need more Ca but add it individually if you do

Cut csmb in half and spike it with .1 ppm dtpa
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Last edited by burr740; 02-07-2019 at 12:09 AM. Reason: forgot to add a decimal
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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-06-2019, 11:58 PM
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Hold on ...
are you root feeding the sword? that could explain why that one isn't growing
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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 12:20 AM Thread Starter
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Sounds to me like you have real nutrient soup going. The problems are most likely induced deficiencies caused by too much of something, rather than a shortage

The fact that you're seeing both old growth (mobile) and new growth (immobile) problems would support the theory. Because you rarely see more than one true deficiency at a tinme (Liebig's law)

I think what you need is a big 80% water change and a drastic reduction.

Go back with 20-25 ppm NO3 per week, 5-6 ppm PO4, K from those two is plenty.

Ditch the Equilibrium, add 5-6 ppm MGSO4, probably dont need more Ca but add it individually if you do

Cut csmb in half and spike it with .1 ppm dtpa
I hear what you are saying, but these growth patterns were present for past year(s), even when I was dosing much less micros and Equilibrium.

I only recently increased Equilibrium and added Epsom Salt, and the doses are not extrordinary.

Only over past two weeks did I increase Equilibrium from .5tsp/10 to 1.5tsp/10.

And only past two weeks did I added Epsom Salt, .5tsp/10 gal. Neither of these has had a negative effect. Things are generally improved, much more pearling.

The combination of Equilibrium and Epsom Salt have raised the GH. Both of these doses are on the low side of what I see advised. I only recently raised Eq in response to a suspected Calcium deficiency. And added Mg in case it was magnesium.

I'm not going to do a knee jerk reaction for a problem that existed long before I increased the GH.

IOW, your advice is to return my tank to the doses it had prior to this past two weeks. Ive had these problems for a long time. I was hoping someone could look at the pictures and see something or based upon the dosing give some reasoned advice.



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Originally Posted by kcoscia View Post
Hold on ...
are you root feeding the sword? that could explain why that one isn't growing
No. Can it not get from water column?


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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 02-07-2019, 12:28 AM
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Oh well I thought you said above your GH was 4 and you raised it 4 more with Equilibrium, unless I read it wrong.

Unrelated; Itd be great if you could list things in terms of ppm instead of tsp and ml, nobody can tell whats going on from that.

And yes swords can feed from the water column but a root tab can certainly help one thats struggling
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