2 year old co2 injected tank, poor growth and algae - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
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2 year old co2 injected tank, poor growth and algae

Hello everybody. I'm new to this site, just joined today. I have a 75 gallon that ive had for 2 years now. I've been in this hobby for about seven years now but started with plants two years ago. ive had a lot of frustration lately and have been getting very poor growth on all plants and lots of algae. Although I solved my bba and green spot algae by adding k2so4, ph2po4, and kno3 in powered form. I still have brown spot algae and the growth sucks on just about every plant. I've even tried a full RO setup and that only made things more problematic due to lack of minerals and ions. This is what I have

plants: anubias nana, anubias hostifolia, crypts, ludwigium, amazon sword, el nino fern, corymbosa, java fern, tiger lotus, and something else i don't or can't specify.

fish: 5 large angels, 3 small rainbow fish

lighting: i finnex ray 2 ds, two seperate finnex fugerays

equipment: sunsun 704 with uv, packed to the max with ceramic rings, no carbon, sunsun gyre wave maker to simulate a gyre, 300 watt fluval heater, 20 pound airgas cylinder combined with a co2 mechnical regulator that feeds the output spray bar, air pump that runs at night, glass drop checker

substrate, medium river rocks on top of seachem flourite, 3 inches of flourite gravel(clay based)

Water parameters:

weekly 50% changes, then after water change I add a teaspoon of alkaline buffer to raise dkh to 5-6, co2 set at about 7bps which keeps ph at 6.6, drop checker always green, even at night, iron tablets added under the swords once a month, finnex ray 2 ds runs from 7am to 2pm, then air pump turns on and co2 turns off at 3pm. also after water change I add a capful of seachem flourish, capful of seachem iron(liquid), then 1/2 tsp kh2po4, 1/2 tsp k2s04, and 3/4 tsp kno3. I do this 3 times a week same with the flourish fertilizer and iron. So basically I'm dosing based on EL instruction for a 75 gallon.

GH always at about 120-180, dkh always at 4-6, ph always at 6.6 and hardly ever goes above 7, phosphates at 1-2 ppm, and nitrates usually in between 15-40. i havent had ammonia in over a year.


No matter what I do, change the lighting, turn on all 3 fixtures for super high light, or just run the ray 2 ds, no matter how much I raise the co2, or add more phosphates or fertilizer, i keep getting the same end result for the past year. And that is, poor growth and little bit of brown algae. People tell me to raise the co2, but from my understanding, the only way you can get 30ppm of co2 is if the co2 remains at 6.6 and the kh at 4 degrees. That is based off a chart I have. higher ph results in more oxygen and less co2 available per cubic volume of water, and lower ph results in higher co2, lower 02 and all that is provided the kh remains at 4 degrees. I don't know what I'm doing wrong her folks, been scratching my head for over a year, been to different people, aquarium stores and experts, forums. One guy says you have high phosphates. But then the next guy will tell me that no phosphates means plants wont fix carbon from co2, which means they wont use the fertilizer to sythesize amino acids and no growth. That leads to excess fertlizer and nutrients for the algae to consume. One thing is for certain, algae love to pick on the poor growing plants. Over the years I've also came across that about 50% of the people in the aquarium world are certain that phosphates cause algae and the other half says there is no scientific evidence that phosphates cause algae(in a co2 planted setup). amonia, co2 fluctuations, and improper ratio of phos to nitrates are the main reason for algae, in my best guess, or simply not enough of them. Last week, I upped the phosphates to 10ppm, and ironically, the algae stopped. Now I'm back to 1-2 ppm, and I have more brown algae and bba. In my discus tank, a tiny trace of phosphates leads to algae and I have to bleach the rocks, but in a planted tank, its a whole different story. My friend doesn't do anything with his tank, no co2, crappy flourecent lighting, and he doesn't understand any of the science, yet he's got beautiful amazon swords growing out of his tank. My swords reach a height of 4 inches, then just stop and start collecting algae, uuhhhhh!

I'd love to hear someones opinion. I've tried so many things and changed so many variables, am I missing a key nutrition? calcium maybe?
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 02:50 AM
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The brown algae is likely diatoms. It is the ugliest algae imo.

You fight diatoms by removing silicates. Your tap water may be high in it. Seachem Phosguard is the product to use.

Also...tank doesnt look clean..could be the diatoms or maybe it needs a deep cleaning. .02
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 03:30 AM
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How long do you have your lights on?

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 03:59 AM
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Hi @ngc1672,

Welcome to TPT!

Yes, there are a lot of opinions out there about algae.....mine is that it is caused by an imbalance. The trick is to determine what is out of balance.

As for your tank and the poor plant growth you are experiencing there are several TPT members here that can help guide you. I downloaded your pictures, enhanced and enlarged them, and this is what I saw:

In this picture arrow #1 is pointing to an older Anubias leaf showing interveinal chlorosis (dark veins with lighter interveinal areas); notice how the dark leaf veins make a 'Christmas Tree' pattern? Arrow #2 is pointing to a leaf where the leaf margin is curling downward, there are many leaves like this in your photos.


In this picture the arrow is pointing at a leaf of Cryptocoryne where the leaf margins are curled under; many older leaves on the Cryptocoryne show this symptom.


One other thing that I noticed, the stem plant (Ludwigia?) in your tank as lost all of its older leaves.

So what is going on? Looking at your photos we see that it is the recently matured or older leaves showing symptoms, this would indicate an issue with a mobile nutrient (a nutrient that the plant can move where it is needed). The mobile nutrients are: nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, magnesium, and a few micro-nutrients. Per your readings the nitrate and phosphorus levels look good. You are dosing KNO3 so it is likely the potassium level is good. That leaves magnesium. What are the symptoms of a magnesium deficiency?

Quote:
II. Symptoms do not appear first or most severely on youngest leaves: Effect general on whole plant or localized on older, lower leaves.

C. Interveinal chlorosis. Interveinal chlorosis first appears on oldest leaves.

1. Older leaves chlorotic, usually necrotic in late stages. Chlorosis along leaf margins extending between veins produces a "Christmas tree" pattern. Veins normal green. Leaf margins may curl downward or upward with puckering effect. Necrosis may suddenly occur between veins. Potassium or calcium excess can inhibit uptake of magnesium...magnesium deficiency

When the external magnesium supply is deficient, interveinal chlorosis of the older leaves is the first symptom because as the magnesium of the chlorophyll is remobilized, the mesophyll cells next to the vascular bundles retain chlorophyll for longer periods than do the parenchyma cells between them. Leaves lose green color at tips and between veins followed by chlorosis or development of brilliant colors, starting with lower leaves and proceeding upwards. The chlorosis/brilliant colors (unmasking of other leaf pigments due to the lack of chlorophyll) may start at the leaf margins or tips and progress inward interveinally producing a "Christmas" tree pattern. Leaves are abnormally thin, stems are brittle and have a tendency to curve upward. Stems are weak, subject to fungus infection, usually leaves drop prematurely.
If this were my tank I would first suspect insufficient magnesium is available to the plants. This can be caused by several factors including an excess of some other nutrient(s) but the most likely cause is just not enough magnesium. Magnesium is critical for photosynthesis, which provides the energy for plant growth. Insufficient magnesium = poor plant growth. Based upon observation of the plants in your tank, the symptoms of a magnesium deficiency, and the poor growth I think your tank needs more magnesium.

Here is what I suggest:

1) Don't change anything, continue dosing all nutrients as you have been. Keep your photoperiod the same. Continue your weekly water changes.

2) Go to your local drug store or grocery store a buy the cheapest box or bag of Epsom Salt (magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O) on the shelf. You want the cheap stuff with no perfumes, scents, or additives.

3) Do an initial dose to your 75 gallon tank of 1/2 teaspoon per 10 gallons. This should add approximately 5 ppm of Mg to your tank and increase the hardness by a little over 1.0 dGH. Thereafter, when you do the weekly water change, add 1/2 teaspoon of MgSO4 per 10 gallons of new water added.

Now the hard part........................wait. Over the next two weeks you should see new leaves emerging greener, larger, healthier - you may also notice a definite increase in the growth rate. Do not watch the existing leaves they will not change and may continue to decline. If you see the improvement I described, then you are on the right path. The suggested dosage level may not totally resolve the symptoms but it should get you going in the right direction. Questions? Just ask! -Roy
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-22-2019, 11:33 PM Thread Starter
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Wow thank you so much Roy! Thanks for the tip on silicates, ScrubbyDick. But I think we can rule out the silicates in the water column since I already tried running the tank on full RO water, compensated with Equilibrium, as if I was breeding discus. There was no substantial difference in algae so I think I'll rule that one out. I actually used phosguard and purigen and won't ever use it again since it absorbs too many heavy ions and leaves you chasing another problem. Absorbing phosphates with make growth even worse since phosphate is a macro for plants. I've got Chicago lake Michigan water, so silicates shouldn't be that bad. I'm going with Roy's advice and I'll start adding magnesium. I'm gona go to my usual fish guy and buy seachem magnesium and I'll buy a bottle of calcium too, that was I can keep my GH where its at. I'll do a lot of trimming to stimulate new growth.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 02:24 AM Thread Starter
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the ray 2 ds is on only for 7 hours a day. The additional fugerays are off at the moment, otherwise its a very high light tank with 50 plus pars at the substrate. I can't turn all 3 fixtures on until I address the deficiency problem first otherwise it will be algae heaven in there lol.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 09:46 PM
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You may be running into the same problem I had. Too much CO2 loss at the surface level due to too much water turbulence at the top of your tank.

Assuming you're not injecting during the time when lights are off, measure pH in morning before your regulator kicks on then note the pH during the time you're injecting. You should be able to measure a fairly significant drop. If not, your reactor or mister may not be dissolving the CO2 properly or you're losing CO2 due to the water turbulence.

In my case, my fish and plants do best with a 1.0 pH drop from the time my regulator kicks on until the lights shut off (approx. six hours). I begin injecting approx. 90-minutes before lights kick on.

I was running through a 5lb.CO2 canister every three weeks and only achieving a 0.5 drop daily. Plants grew slow and algae, while not major, was still a PITA to manage. When another member here suggested I attempt to decrease turbulence/ agitation at the surface where the gaseous exchange occurs, I shut down an intank power head and decreased the return flow from my sump to the tank in order to cut down the surface agitation. When I did this, I was able to get another 0.5 pH drop for my desired 1.0 drop. During the curse of decreasing the surface turbulence, my plants began to perl and I noticed significant plant growth over the two day period. The side benefit is alage hates the additional carbonic acid in the water.

All the best!
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-23-2019, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah thats a keen observation and I agree, too much turbulence is bad. That's why I turned of the wavemaker of the time being. Before I had the sunsun gyre circulator on lowest settings to create a "river current", but couple weeks ago I turned it off and put lids on the tank to trap more co2. Everybody says to have current to keep algae down, but I disagree. I think with enough phosphates and nitrates you shouldn't be getting much algae. I tried a co2 glass difusser before, but then decided to hook the airline up to the output spray bar on the filter, you get it in the system faster and over a larger area to make more carbonic acid.

Bump: Ill try the 90 minute co2 thing before lights on.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 12:54 AM
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Well you have been given lots of information. I agree with others to keep everything the same for now but make 1 big change and give plants at least 2-3 weeks to respond. I personally go w/smaller gravel diameter; some of your substrate may be contributing to alkalinity; S.A. plants don't like this. I did notice as others did that you have too much detritus sitting on bottom; gravel wash the tank. Also what I found that eliminated my algae problems was to increase flow. My plants had become so dense that algae became a problem. The reason is that the plant density was stopping water movement. So I added 2 800 gal/hr stick on pumps at either end of tank. It took 2-3 weeks but my algae was completely eliminated; the difference was dramatic. Some say my flow is too great but my 12 species of tetras love it and they have numerous places to get out of current if they want. As far as fertilizer I did a lot of reading as I never could grow plants. I bought the best book on the subject "Ecology of the Planted Tank" by Walstad. I chose AQUARIUMFERTILIZER.COM as my source for fertilizer. I use Macro Micro Nutrient Mix (equal parts Plantex CSM + boron, Potassium Nitrate, Potassium Sulfate, Magnesium Sulfate). MMN is all I use. I have a dirted tank set up using Walstad's method and use co2 injection at 2-3bbs. If I cut the co2 off within a week my plants begin to die off. I do not change co2 during a 24 hour day. I find that some plants grow like mad while others die off. My common Amazon Swords don't do well but Crypt. wendetii, Java moss, and Marble Sword plant and dwarf sag. do very well, I am happy. I actually had to sell 120 dollars worth of plants from my 100 gal tank to pet shops this week so I could get plants back under control, it helps on supplies. Yet despite setting up a 70 gal the same way, it does not do near as well as the 100gal. Go figure!
Hope this helps.

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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-24-2019, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngc1672 View Post
also after water change I add a capful of seachem flourish, capful of seachem iron(liquid), then 1/2 tsp kh2po4, 1/2 tsp k2s04, and 3/4 tsp kno3. I do this 3 times a week same with the flourish fertilizer and iron. So basically I'm dosing based on EL instruction for a 75 gallon.
Whose EI instruction?

Based on actual 65G water volume would be the following.....NO3=29, PO4=23, K=35? Not even close to EI guidelines. And you have mostly low light plants, which require only a fraction of EI.

Do you know how to use the Rotalabutterfly or Zorfox calculators? If not, you should seek them out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngc1672 View Post
ph always at 6.6 and hardly ever goes above 7, phosphates at 1-2 ppm, and nitrates usually in between 15-40.
What are you using to measure these levels? There is no way your P is at 1-2 ppm if you are dosing 23 P per week. How are you measuring pH? Do you know your degassed pH?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngc1672 View Post
No matter what I do, change the lighting, turn on all 3 fixtures for super high light, or just run the ray 2 ds, no matter how much I raise the co2, or add more phosphates or fertilizer, i keep getting the same end result for the past year.
With your plants (crypts/anubias/ferns/swords), one light is plenty and maybe too much. Running 2 or 3 is just begging for algae. Even the one might need to be dimmed. You have low light plants, and most of them would grow just from ambient light. And really, they need very little in the way of ferts.

And addressing a comment above, CO2 and oxygen are not mutually exclusive. You can easily have both.

Good surface agitation (oxygen) is key to good fish and general tank health.

And your CO2 level is not your problem. If the light & fert level were right, your tank could do very well without ANY CO2.

What is your maintenance like? Not just water changes. Filter cleaning? Vacuuming gravel? I ask because the substrate looks really dirty. Can't tell if it's algae or detritus. Either way, it needs to be cleaned up. An uber clean tank will make every single thing easier.

If I were you, I would go through the journal section here. Find some tanks of similar size and goals (low light/low tech plants) and see what makes them successful.

Good luck. Just so you know, a low light tank should be pretty simple, very low light/low ferts and nice healthy slow growth.


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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-25-2019, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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Well the PH is ball park to around 6.6 from the lime green drop checker, and two different cheap strip testers also show around 6.6, so that's how I'm sure of that. All that garbage you see is old BBA from when I had a major outbreak. I put a bunch of medium sized rock over all the flourite substrate so maintenance would be easier and so the flourite wouln't move around, its really light being clay, and the rock help pin plants in without having to super glue plants to flat rocks, which i used to do.


Dosing Instructions


That's what I've been using for dosing. So I dose 3/4 tsp kno3, and 3/16 to 1/2 tsp of KH2PO4. I also do 1/2 tsp of K2so4 potassium sulfate to get potash, but I don't know if that's right. Someone told me to dose potassium sulfate to increase potassium. I hope this doesn't add extra phosphates into the tank. It's probably all wrong. Monday, wednesday, and friday I add all 3, kno3, kh2po4, and k2so4. If I check the next day after 24 hours, the phosphate and nitrate test kits give me the 1-2, and the 15-40 readings. But of course the readings could all be wrong too and I don't know what the hell is going on in my death tank.

Bump: Ill download zorfox and see what it's all about.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-25-2019, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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I download zorfox and it also says to add 3/4 tsp of kno3 to raise no3 up by 7.5 ppm., for 75 gallons of water(i know I really have 65 probaby) That's what i've been doing, and I do it 3 times a week, so where is the problem here?
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-25-2019, 03:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ngc1672 View Post
I download zorfox and it also says to add 3/4 tsp of kno3 to raise no3 up by 7.5 ppm., for 75 gallons of water(i know I really have 65 probaby) That's what i've been doing, and I do it 3 times a week, so where is the problem here?
Zorfox EI for 65G

KNO3 7.5 ppm = 1/2 tsp = 22.5 ppm weekly
includes 4.72 ppm K or 14.16 K ppm weekly

KH2PO4 1.3 ppm = 1/16 tsp = 3.9 ppm weekly

K2SO4 Now you need to take the 14.16 ppm you are getting from KNO3, the add enough to get up to 22.5 ppm. So you would add about 8 ppm additional.

To simplify......

Weekly you are dosing.....

NO3=29, PO4=23, K=35

EI would be.......

NO3 22.5, PO4 3.9, K=8.

And with your plants, you need a small fraction of the EI dosing.

You need to understand that EI dosing was developed for tanks with very high light, high CO2, and fast growing stems flowery stems.

With your mix of plants, you need lower light, lower ferts, and moderate CO2. And you need to get in there an clean the heck out of that tank, and remove every spec of algae from everything.

Honestly, just changing and focusing on ferts and CO2 will never fix your problems. Light and maintenance are your biggest issues.

Like I said earlier, do some research on successful low tech tanks. It will be well worth your time.


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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-27-2019, 12:19 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you so much for the information. Yeah now I see what's going on. Looks like I've been dosing way too much, especially phosphate. I did a really good clean today and a water change, but I'm still going to experiment with the magnesium like Roy said. In the past 5 days I see some improvement on the swords, and their leaves are getting darker. We'll see in another week and a half what happens. I think the ray 2 ds might be too strong for these low light stragglers, so I'll run two fugerays instead and see if the added 660nm red leds do anything.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 01-27-2019, 01:19 AM Thread Starter
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One other question, when you guys premix your KNO3 in a beaker for example, does it make a difference if you mix the powder with 100ml of water or 500ml, for example. Everybody says to premix before you dump into the tank.
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