Preventing End of Tank Dump with Dual Regulator? - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 12:35 AM Thread Starter
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Preventing End of Tank Dump with Dual Regulator?

Hello, unfortunate day in my household. I have one high tech aquarium that is my pride and joy. This morning I noticed a couple of flipped over fish on the bottom of the tank, but still alive, and fish at the top of the tank struggling to breathe. Noticed that CO2 bubbles were at a very fast rate and my heart sank...I had never experienced it before but it looks like an End of Tank dump. Unfortunately lost most of my fish. Luckily still have 5 narrow wedge rasbora and 2 ember tetras left, but it's still quite a shock coming down from 20 rasboras and 4 embers. And then of course my male fire red agasizii apisto had to die too...his mate is still alive but not to be callous, he was the pretty one of the pair.

The problem is that I actually had a dual regulator set up, the GLA Gro-1. Which is a shame because I otherwise loved it. This was my first high tech planted tank, so I thought that having a dual regulator was supposed to prevent any end of tank dumps? Do I just always have to be cautious about whether my CO2 tank is emptying or not? How do I prevent this from happening again, basically. I'm just super bummed out, especially since my tank was otherwise going really well.

Thanks everybody
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post #2 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 01:01 AM
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Dual stage does. Dual gauge does not. The GLA is not a dual stage. It's a dual gauge which does absolutely nothing to prevent EOTD. It just means it has two gauges.

As for GLA claiming their regs have no EOTD....not sure how they can ensure that or what it is about their regs prevent that from occurring. If you are certain that's what happened...I'd contact them and see what they have to say considering they claim their single stage regulators prevent EOTD.


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post #3 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 01:09 AM
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@Nubster is right: this is NOT a dual STAGE regulator. It's a SINGLE stage. However, GLA seems to imply that they guarantee against EOT dumps. You may want to contact them to see if they can address the problem. From what I've heard, they are very accommodating with customer service. I think that they would want to hear about your problem.
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post #4 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 01:30 AM
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Sorry to hear about your fish.

Can you give more details what happened? Just because the bubble count was going at a very fast rate does not mean it was EOTD. Other members have complained that the needle valve on that regulator as not been holding a consistent count.
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post #5 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 01:47 AM
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Sorry to hear about your fish.

Can you give more details what happened? Just because the bubble count was going at a very fast rate does not mean it was EOTD. Other members have complained that the needle valve on that regulator as not been holding a consistent count.
Was wondering the same thing. What makes you think it was EOTD?

Any chance someone bumped the needle valve? Or it drifted enough to gas the fish? Not saying it isn't EOTD, but from what you described, would not be the first thing would I suspect.

And however it happened, sorry to see the loss of fish. If you purchase more expensive fish, you might want to consider a pH controller. I use one as a fail safe against gassing my tank of Rainbows. Peace of mind is worth the cost to me.


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post #6 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 03:47 AM
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An EOTD would be the first thing I would suspect - IF - the tank is empty or near empty. Can you determine what state the tank is in? Is it very low? Check the high pressure gauge to see if it is where it should be (750-850 psi - depends upon ambient temp).
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post #7 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 03:56 AM
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Sorry for your loss. Maybe the kids or someone thought you needed more oxygen and cranked it up?


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post #8 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 01:21 PM
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An EOTD would be the first thing I would suspect - IF - the tank is empty or near empty. Can you determine what state the tank is in? Is it very low? Check the high pressure gauge to see if it is where it should be (750-850 psi - depends upon ambient temp).
I don't think that would really prove anything. The tank could have emptied from just the needle valve not holding or being moved accidently.
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post #9 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 01:43 PM
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I don't think that would really prove anything. The tank could have emptied from just the needle valve not holding or being moved accidently.
The problem is finding the problem. The coincidence of an unexpectedly empty tank and dead fish would indicate an EOTD if the needle valve had been functioning properly at last check (bubble count). With single stage, you are highly dependent upon a needle valve so, I assume that GLA is using a high quality one.

As you know, if you don't follow correct start-up procedure when replacing an empty tank, you can damage the needle valve and that is the only thing I can think of that may have caused a needle valve problem in a high quality needle valve. I think it would be best for the OP to talk this through with GLA.

The OP should note that an EOTD is not a sudden emptying of the tank, like an explosion. It's a gradually increasing release of CO2 that can kill fairly quickly, especially if you are on the border of 35-45 ppm of CO2 in your tank. If noticed in time, you can keep up with it by adjusting the needle valve frequently to compensate. However, I have a dual stage, so I have never personally experienced an EOTD.
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post #10 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 01:53 PM
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What is the telltale sign that the cylinder is running out of CO2? The high pressure gauge has poor resolution to read imminent emptying. The guy that filled up my cylinder told me CO2 filling is measured by weight, not by pressure as it fluctuates with temperature. Will it be easier to read by weighing the cyclinder?
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post #11 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 02:03 PM
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The problem is finding the problem. The coincidence of an unexpectedly empty tank and dead fish would indicate an EOTD if the needle valve had been functioning properly at last check (bubble count). With single stage, you are highly dependent upon a needle valve so, I assume that GLA is using a high quality one.
A needle valve being accidently hit or just not holding occurs much more than any EOTD. EOTD wouldn't be the first thing, but the last thing to think of based on how often these things actually occur. Others have posted on TPT that the Gro 1 has not been holding the count.

We just don't know enough to call it EOTD which it look like everyone was doing initially based on OPs limited description of what happened and experience with Co2.
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post #12 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 02:11 PM
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What is the telltale sign that the cylinder is running out of CO2? The high pressure gauge has poor resolution to read imminent emptying. The guy that filled up my cylinder told me CO2 filling is measured by weight, not by pressure as it fluctuates with temperature. Will it be easier to read by weighing the cyclinder?
True, but after the initial trip home and given that your cylinder would be sitting in your fairly temperature controlled house which most of us probably prefer a comfortable 70ish, in most situations, the high pressure gauge will stay steady between 800-900 until it's close to empty. If you at least monitor it at least weekly, you'll see it start a pretty sudden drop to 600 and below when emptying is "imminent". At my usage, on a 5lb cylinder, I usually get roughly 2 weeks out of that period. Maybe 3 if I run it all the way to empty. If I really valued piece of mind, since the normal usage duration of a filled tank for me is almost 5 months, I'd just not care for that extra 2 weeks.

See graph in this post for pressure vs %full vs temperature.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/9-...ml#post3837889

I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer glancing at the gauge every week vs taking it out of its mount and putting it on a scale or putting a scale underneath it permanently.
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post #13 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 02:33 PM
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I don't know about you, but I'd much prefer glancing at the gauge every week vs taking it out of its mount and putting it on a scale or putting a scale underneath it permanently.
I don't disagree, but just saying after being in this hobby a long time, with multiple co2 setups that just doesn't happen for me. Life gets in the way. I let every single one of my co2 setups run to empty,
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post #14 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 03:06 PM
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I don't disagree, but just saying after being in this hobby a long time, with multiple co2 setups that just doesn't happen for me. Life gets in the way. I let every single one of my co2 setups run to empty,
It would be interesting to know at what saturation level you inject co2 at ?

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post #15 of 106 (permalink) Old 01-09-2018, 03:38 PM
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I haven't seen the statistics about frequencies of EOTD, needle valves being hit or simply not holding so, I can't assign the probabilities to any of those occurrences that others can. Without being shown those statistics, it makes sense to look at each possibility.

Regarding the possibilities of a needle valve not holding (you'd have to refill the tank then watch the bubble rate to see if it holds or not) or an EOTD, I'd take those to GLA and ask them to help you. Regarding the needle valve being hit, well ...did you hit it? If you fill it, and the bubble rate holds, then the probabilities of an EOTD or having hit the needle valve go up.

Weighing it is a good way to determine how close to the end you are and cheap postal scales are available on the likes of Amazon, but you'd still have to look at a scale regularly, just like regularly checking the pressure gauge, and the pressure gauge will remain steady (once it settles in to the ambient temperature) until the tank nears empty. Good graph @ipkiss.
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