Months of trial and error and still stunted plants.(chronological funk on page 2) - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Months of trial and error and still stunted plants.(chronological funk on page 2)

I posted a while back about my Rotala rotundifolia(indica?) and Macranda growing tiny leaves, and in macrandas case the leaves curl downwards and corkscrew and do weird things.

Some people mentioned Calcium, Co2, N, iron.

Tap water is KH 5 GH 6, when I test with calcium test kit Calcium is 40-60 ppm kinda hard to tell.
I started dosing Calcium Chloride until my GH was 9...
Pretty sure that made it worse for Macranda but better for Rotundifolia.

Started to get BBA bad
I tore out all the rotundifolia and replaced with Nesaea Crasicularis because it was so thick and stunted I started thinking it was stealing all the co2 and flow nutrients etc.
Cleaned the filter out too and bba has stopped spreading but hasn't retreat yet.


Rotala Bonsai still grows weird.
AR mini is crinkly
Fissidens fontanus will not get bright green at all, very dark.
Macranda is just like the tiniest most pathetic thing, DHG does not spread at all.

Ludwigia seems ok, crypts are fine.

People have mentioned too much K.. so I stopped dosing K separately and just get it in my KNO3 and Kh2Po4 now.
I'm on EI dosing schedule for 20-40 gal tank.

Tank is 33 gallon with eheim 2217 with impeller swapped for eheim 650 impeller so maybe 180 gph?

Co2 is from inline diffuser and my drop checker with 5dkh is borderline yellow.
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post #2 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 09:37 PM
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Hi Chlorophile,

How much light do you have on that tank? Photoperiod?

You indicate you are dosing EI; how much of each and how often?

Water changes?

Is the tank a 60 liter?

Do you happen to know the NO3 ppm?

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post #3 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 11:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Chlorophile,

How much light do you have on that tank? Photoperiod?

You indicate you are dosing EI; how much of each and how often?

Water changes?

Is the tank a 60 liter?

Do you happen to know the NO3 ppm?

I have a current satellite pro on for 8 hours.
It's mounted 5 inches above the water and the tank is 18 inches deep

I followed standard ei for 20-40 gal aquarium which was 1/4 kno3 1/8th everything else 3x a week.
Just about a week ago I stopped dosing k2so4 incase I had too much K
50% week wc every Sunday
As per standard ei it fluctuates from around 5ppm on wc day up to like 30 or so.

I just recently bought another light and have them overlap for one hour because when I raised my light my fissidens fontanus lost its color.


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post #4 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 11:24 PM
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How old is the setup?
What is your substrate?
Did you start the tank with 8 hours of light?
Two feet to substrate is a pretty good distance. Is the light equipped for that?
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post #5 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
I have a current satellite pro on for 8 hours.
It's mounted 5 inches above the water and the tank is 18 inches deep

I followed standard ei for 20-40 gal aquarium which was 1/4 kno3 1/8th everything else 3x a week.
Just about a week ago I stopped dosing k2so4 incase I had too much K
50% week wc every Sunday
As per standard ei it fluctuates from around 5ppm on wc day up to like 30 or so.

I just recently bought another light and have them overlap for one hour because when I raised my light my fissidens fontanus lost its color.
Hi Chlorophile,

PH, dKH, dGH?

Roy_________
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post #6 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by houseofcards View Post
How old is the setup?
What is your substrate?
Did you start the tank with 8 hours of light?
Two feet to substrate is a pretty good distance. Is the light equipped for that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
I have a current satellite pro on for 8 hours.
It's mounted 5 inches above the water and the tank is 18 inches deep

I followed standard ei for 20-40 gal aquarium which was 1/4 kno3 1/8th everything else 3x a week.
Just about a week ago I stopped dosing k2so4 incase I had too much K
50% week wc every Sunday
As per standard ei it fluctuates from around 5ppm on wc day up to like 30 or so.

I just recently bought another light and have them overlap for one hour because when I raised my light my fissidens fontanus lost its color.
Hi Chlorophile,

PH, dKH, dGH?
pH 6.6, dkh 5 GH 6, calcium between 40-60 ppm

Tank is half sand half aquasoil with powersand special.
Has been set up since February

Everything was excellent at first, macranda was round big and red, Rotala was tall had color green thick and bushy.

I used to keep the light lower but raised it.

It's supposedly close to 90 par at 18 inches?
Not positive.
I have two of them now set to lower intensity.


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post #7 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-12-2017, 11:50 PM Thread Starter
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About the only thing I haven't tried is magnesium.
I have good calcium and even tried adding more.
That's why I'm trying less K now incase it was inhibiting uptake....
Here's a full tank shot if it helps.

Even s. Repens doesn't do so hot in here I don't get it.
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post #8 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 12:19 AM
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Hi Chlorophile,

Quote:
Everything was excellent at first, macranda was round big and red, Rotala was tall had color green thick and bushy.
First of all go back to the single light and place it where it was originally when you had good growth. Return to the dosing you were doing when you had good growth.

The small, stunted, deformed leaves is likely due to a calcium deficiency. The leaves are not forming properly. A hint that calcium is the issue is the hooked leaf tips (see smaller arrows). The tan discoloration (large arrow) can be a symptom of a shortage of manganese (if a newer leaf), nitrogen.



Quote:
I. Symptoms appearing first or most severely on new growth (root and shoot tips, new leaves)

A. Terminal bud usually dies. Symptoms on new growth.

2. Necrosis occurs at tip and margin of leaves causing a definite hook at leaf tip.

Calcium is essential for the growth of shoot and root tips (meristems). Growing point dies. Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or stem topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... calcium deficiency

Differentiating between calcium and boron deficiency symptoms: When calcium is deficient, there is a characteristic hooking of the youngest leaf tips. However, when boron is deficient, the breakdown occurs at the bases of the youngest leaves. Death of the terminal growing points is the final result in both cases.
I suggest starting by adding 1 tablespoon (or 3 teaspoons) of Seachem Equilibrium to your tank; this should increase your tank hardness by about 2 dGH (it should not effect dKH). When you do water changes add 1-1/2 teaspoons of Equilibrium to the tank to replace what was removed with the old water. The purpose is not to incrase your tank hardness, but to add additional calcium and magnesium. Seachem Equilbirum contains calcium, magnesium, potassium, a little iron and manganese. Now the hard part.....make no other changes for two weeks. Watch your new growth (the existing leaves will change little if any) and see if it looks healthier, straighter, with better leaf width.

Let me know how it goes! -Roy
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post #9 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 12:32 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Chlorophile,

Quote:
Everything was excellent at first, macranda was round big and red, Rotala was tall had color green thick and bushy.
First of all go back to the single light and place it where it was originally when you had good growth. Return to the dosing you were doing when you had good growth.

The small, stunted, deformed leaves is likely due to a calcium deficiency. The leaves are not forming properly. A hint that calcium is the issue is the hooked leaf tips (see smaller arrows). The tan discoloration (large arrow) can be a symptom of a shortage of manganese (if a newer leaf), nitrogen.



Quote:
I. Symptoms appearing first or most severely on new growth (root and shoot tips, new leaves)

A. Terminal bud usually dies. Symptoms on new growth.

2. Necrosis occurs at tip and margin of leaves causing a definite hook at leaf tip.

Calcium is essential for the growth of shoot and root tips (meristems). Growing point dies. Margins of young leaves are scalloped and abnormally green and, due to inhibition of cell wall formation, the leaf tips may be "gelatinous" and stuck together inhibiting leaf unfolding. Stem structure is weak and peduncle collapse or stem topple may occur. Roots are stunted. Downward curl of leaf tips (hooking) occurs near terminal bud. ammonium or magnesium excess may induce a calcium deficiency in plants... calcium deficiency

Differentiating between calcium and boron deficiency symptoms: When calcium is deficient, there is a characteristic hooking of the youngest leaf tips. However, when boron is deficient, the breakdown occurs at the bases of the youngest leaves. Death of the terminal growing points is the final result in both cases.
I suggest starting by adding 1 tablespoon (or 3 teaspoons) of Seachem Equilibrium to your tank; this should increase your tank hardness by about 2 dGH (it should not effect dKH). When you do water changes add 1-1/2 teaspoons of Equilibrium to the tank to replace what was removed with the old water. The purpose is not to incrase your tank hardness, but to add additional calcium and magnesium. Seachem Equilbirum contains calcium, magnesium, potassium, a little iron and manganese. Now the hard part.....make no other changes for two weeks. Watch your new growth (the existing leaves will change little if any) and see if it looks healthier, straighter, with better leaf width.

Let me know how it goes! -Roy
But I really only had good growth while the tank was cycling..
The discoloration on that one leaf is cause the plant is transition from emersed.
How can I need calcium as I tried adding it for a month straight and with a GH of 6 how can I need magnesium?

Stuff got wonky when I started EI..
I wonder if I received a wrong chemical somehow


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post #10 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 12:39 AM Thread Starter
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Here's the new growth on my Nesaea.. some of it looks normal some of it is crooked.
Not sure about the veination because it's a red plant.

Only reason I'm skeptical on calcium is well you should be able to get rid of the symptoms by adding calcium and it didn't help and my full was almost at 9 at one point and still no dice.

Is there any reason why maybe having a 1:1 Cal mg ratio would screw with stuff?
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post #11 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 12:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
But I really only had good growth while the tank was cycling..
The discoloration on that one leaf is cause the plant is transition from emersed.
How can I need calcium as I tried adding it for a month straight and with a GH of 6 how can I need magnesium?

Stuff got wonky when I started EI..
I wonder if I received a wrong chemical somehow
It sounds like to me you got the bump from the Aquasoil as when you first start it's so loaded with nutrients the plants look like their on steroids.

If your KH, GH is 5,6 out of the tap, plus your getting Mg from your micro dosing I'm not sure how much more you would need in your situation. Plus the plants were growing without adding extra. What are your current NO3 numbers? These would be very high when you first started up the tank with AS. I dose all my AS tanks high, do 50% WC and I have soft water KH 2, GH 4. I've always dosed extra K above what I get from the KNO3.
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post #12 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 12:51 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
But I really only had good growth while the tank was cycling..
The discoloration on that one leaf is cause the plant is transition from emersed.
How can I need calcium as I tried adding it for a month straight and with a GH of 6 how can I need magnesium?

Stuff got wonky when I started EI..

I wonder if I received a wrong chemical somehow
It sounds like to me you got the bump from the Aquasoil as when you first start it's so loaded with nutrients the plants look like their on steroids.

If your KH, GH is 5,6 out of the tap, plus your getting Mg from your micro dosing I'm not sure how much more you would need in your situation. Plus the plants were growing without adding extra. What are your current NO3 numbers? These would be very high when you first started up the tank with AS. I dose all my AS tanks high, do 50% WC and I have soft water KH 2, GH 4. I've always dosed extra K above what I get from the KNO3.
Current no3 (water change today) is some shade of orange, probably 10 ppm
Throughout the week I see it as high as 30ppm.
All three fertilizer I was using include K so I felt perhaps it was plenty..
I used powersand too idk what nutrients it has.


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post #13 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 01:01 AM
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Hi Chlorophile,

I can only offer an analysis based upon the symptoms the plants are displaying. I know that 'hooked leaf tips' on new leaves is a symptom of a Ca deficiency because I have experienced it and corrected it; same with the malformation of new leaves as they emerge. By the way, nice 'scalloped leaf margins' on the Nesaea. It might be worth noting that ADA Aquasoil contains no calcium.

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post #14 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 01:07 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi Chlorophile,

I can only offer an analysis based upon the symptoms the plants are displaying. I know that 'hooked leaf tips' on new leaves is a symptom of a Ca deficiency because I have experienced it and corrected it; same with the malformation of new leaves as they emerge. By the way, nice 'scalloped leaf margins' on the Nesaea. It might be worth noting that ADA Aquasoil contains no calcium.
Thank you I'm by no means not grateful but just hoping see if there are alternative conclusion we can come to?
Gh6 60ppm calcium and I added extra calcium in the form of calcium chloride without improvement.

I wasn't sure if the scalloped leaf margin was good or a sign of the same deficiency


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post #15 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-13-2017, 01:47 AM
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Hi Chlorophile,

I have used calcium chloride in the past but my preferred source of calcium is calcium sulfate (CaSO4).

With 6.0 dGH your water is "soft". You say your Ca is 60 ppm with a hardness of 6.0 dGH? Did you actually measure your calcium level or are you assuming with 6 dGH you have 60 ppm of Ca? dGH measures the amount of Ca++, Mg++, Fe++, and Mn++ in our water so some of your 6.0 dGH is not Ca. For example my water is very soft, typically less than 2.0 dGH. Our most recent water quality report for Seattle says I have 21.1 ppm of Ca (as CaCO3) but only 6.9 ppm of Ca. If it were me I would add Equilibrium as suggested.

Quote:
Water hardness follows
these guidelines:

0 - 4 dH, 0 - 70 ppm : very soft
4 - 8 dH, 70 - 140 ppm : soft
8 - 12 dH, 140 - 210 ppm : medium hard
12 - 18 dH, 210 - 320 ppm : fairly hard
18 - 30 dH, 320 - 530 ppm : hard
higher : liquid rock

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