Months of trial and error and still stunted plants.(chronological funk on page 2) - Page 4 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #46 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
Hmm, are there reliable Cu test kits that would actually give me an accurate reading?

I did add several shrimps to the tank and they all died within a few weeks, except the amano's which climbed out.
Both JBL and SERA make Cu test kits. Not sure how accurate they are though. Also, no idea what test kit brands you guys have in the US.
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post #47 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 11:40 PM
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I think there is only a tiny amount of CU in CSM+B.
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post #48 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-14-2017, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
I am using CSM+B
I am going to stop dosing for a few weeks or until my non-stunted plans show some sort of deficiency and then start again.
I've followed Burr, Zapin, and several others very long threads and so I feel there is enough evidence to atleast give it a shot.

I made the mistake early on of doubling my traces to try and get better color out of R Macranda and then saw CA deficiency and chased that tail but Ca didn't fix it.
I also just now mixed up a solution of CSM+B because scooping 1/16th of the stuff and I can visibly see large white clumps(boron?) and other stuff not mixed... i think its just better to have it in a liquid.
Instead of stopping CSM+B, why didn't you try the Equilibrium like several people suggested earlier in this thread?

Also, is it possible you mixed the EI wrong or are dosing it incorrectly for your tank? I know you said 30ppm Nitrates at end of week..but its worth double checking. I found that EI formulas differ from website to website.
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post #49 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 12:47 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ChrisX View Post
Instead of stopping CSM+B, why didn't you try the Equilibrium like several people suggested earlier in this thread?

Also, is it possible you mixed the EI wrong or are dosing it incorrectly for your tank? I know you said 30ppm Nitrates at end of week..but its worth double checking. I found that EI formulas differ from website to website.
Cross referenced EI values several times, everything is up to snuff. Is there a specific nutrient that in excess or lack of might cause my symptoms?

I dont have pin holes or loss of color or anything in older leaves, even 3 month old leaves on my very slow growing Macrandra.

I fail to see the value in Equilibrium when I can test my water and see I don't lack anything it provides?
I can test my tank and see my GH hasn't moved over the course of a week
I provided plenty of Calcium, I show no signs of Magnesium deficiency but I will add it for laughs.
I feel like I'll see more results from doing the opposite, lowering GH and KH.
Dosing Urea or Ammonium Sulfate

Bump:

This is a stem of Rotundifolia, you can see the stunting in the middle, looks exactly like what I experienced.
At the bottom of the stem he was dosing low kno3 and urea, then he upped kno3 and stopped the urea and it stunted, then he went back to low kno3 and urea and it returned to normal growth.

Argh the possibilities


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post #50 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 01:30 AM
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I fail to see the value in Equilibrium when I can test my water and see I don't lack anything it provides?
Your method has potentially more points of failure. What if one of those tests is wrong? Would you bet your life on their accuracy? Can you *really* test for all the individual ingredients in Equilibrium?

The whole point of EI is to overdose all necessary ingredients so you don't have to test like crazy, and the 50% wc keeps everything in check and CONSTANT. I am making a similar suggestion for Equilibrium, to dose it (in case) you are missing one or more of those.

Most people realize CSM+B doesnt have all the micros, so they suggest Equilibrium or mix your own (advanced). Its possible the Aquasoil had these in the beginning and they were depleted.

Trying to diagnose specific deficiencies also has problems, as there may be more than one deficiency, and variances between species may manifest differently.

You are going off on many tangents and disregarding the kind of (exhaustive) "problem solving" that EI provides.

The decision to halt CSM+B makes no sense if you are doing 50% water changes.
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post #51 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 01:52 AM Thread Starter
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Your method has potentially more points of failure. What if one of those tests is wrong? Would you bet your life on their accuracy? Can you *really* test for all the individual ingredients in Equilibrium?

The whole point of EI is to overdose all necessary ingredients so you don't have to test like crazy, and the 50% wc keeps everything in check and CONSTANT. I am making a similar suggestion for Equilibrium, to dose it (in case) you are missing one or more of those.

Most people realize CSM+B doesnt have all the micros, so they suggest Equilibrium or mix your own (advanced). Its possible the Aquasoil had these in the beginning and they were depleted.

Trying to diagnose specific deficiencies also has problems, as there may be more than one deficiency, and variances between species may manifest differently.

You are going off on many tangents and disregarding the kind of (exhaustive) "problem solving" that EI provides.

The decision to halt CSM+B makes no sense if you are doing 50% water changes.
My decision to halt CSM+B is based on a slew of other info and stems from the fact that I never had any issues until I started EI, and I don't see how NPK would hurt my plants.

I don't have symptoms of anything but Ca deficiency, I don't think its even possible to get a Cl or S deficiency with 50% water changes from tap water.
I've added over 60ppm weekly of Calcium and nothing happened.
What would Equilibrium do that I haven't already tried?
People grow plants well in a GH 2....

My plants show more signs of Calcium deficiency after I added Ca than before I started a few months ago.
Magnesium is mobile I have no signs of lacking it.
And while I don't trust my Ca test down to a specific PPM, I know I'm between 40-60 ppm since I can test RO water and get a 0-10 reading, and I can test 5 gal of tap with 10mg/l per gallon added and get a reading of around 100 mg/l

Why is it only Lythraceae plants that have issues?
Why is there countless pages of threads where people have the same "Ca deficiency" on Lythraceae and they cut back on Micro's and see results?

I made the second thread because the prior suggestions of low N or low Ca were put to the test and no cigar.
I don't need Ca, my tank GH is 9 now from added Ca... I'll add Mg each week and see.
Chloride? Well I doses Calcium Chloride so no.
Sulfur? Well maybe, but is it not in most of the fertilizers and in dechlorinator? I don't have symptoms of it either, and its mobile so old leaves should be suffering.

Now Fe can block the uptake of Sulfur, so maybe adding more would help but that isn't really solving my issue if its excess Traces.


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post #52 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
I don't have symptoms of anything but Ca deficiency, I don't think its even possible to get a Cl or S deficiency with 50% water changes from tap water.
I've added over 60ppm weekly of Calcium and nothing happened.
What would Equilibrium do that I haven't already tried?
People grow plants well in a GH 2....
Challenge your assumptions. You think they are symptoms of calcium deficiency, you added calcium, but it didn't fix the problem. Obviously, not a calcium deficiency.

All your problems started with EI? Only thing that could happen dosing normal (too much) EI is potential algae. Did you get extra algae? Another explanation, aquasoil ran out of trace elements around the time you started EI.

You seem to be making conclusions that haven't worked, so the assumptions they are based on must be wrong.

You attribute the problems to EI, when that is likely not the problem; its something else unless there is toxin in ferts, or they are mixed wrong. Where did you get your EI ferts?
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post #53 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 02:02 AM Thread Starter
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Challenge your assumptions. You think they are symptoms of calcium deficiency, you added calcium, but it didn't fix the problem. Obviously, not a calcium deficiency.
Exactly my point, thank you
Nor is it Magnesium
Nor is it Chloride
My gH is already higher than most of my plants like, so why add equilibrium?

Sulfur?

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisX View Post
Challenge your assumptions. You think they are symptoms of calcium deficiency, you added calcium, but it didn't fix the problem. Obviously, not a calcium deficiency.

All your problems started with EI? Only thing that could happen dosing normal (too much) EI is potential algae. Did you get extra algae? Another explanation, aquasoil ran out of trace elements around the time you started EI.

You seem to be making conclusions that haven't worked, so the assumptions they are based on must be wrong.

You attribute the problems to EI, when that is likely not the problem; its something else unless there is toxin in ferts, or they are mixed wrong. Where did you get your EI ferts?
I got hair algae briefly, it subsided quickly, I got BBA when my filter became clogged, it hasn't gone away but is not spreading or growing even on java fern or Anubias leaves.

When my Macrandra started doing weird things I did 2X traces, so I don't see how traces missing from Aquasoil at 4-6 weeks into the life of the soil is possible.

I got the ferts from GLA, and I had at one point wondered if they were in the wrong containers somehow.

Edit:
Thread is long and rambling so I'll provide the history again for those who may have missed it
I started the tank in February
Started EI about 4-6 weeks after i set the tank up, basically when it was done cycling.
I read that Macrandra likes traces and low N so I took N from 1/4 tsp to 1/8 tsp and traces from 1/16th to 1/8th, 3x a week each.
Things got way worse and thats when I returned to bone-standard Ei but with Calcium Chloride added.

double edit:
This is not at all my first time with EI either, I've had high tech tanks in some form for 9 years now, I always use EI.
I've had a variety of issues but nothing out of the ordinary, algae killing HC carpets, etc.
So I'm not anti EI, but unless my ADA Hornwood is toxic or my Yamaya Stone has veins of toxic metals hidden in it then nothing sets this tank apart and it shouldn't be doing worse than any of my old tanks.

Last edited by Chlorophile; 11-15-2017 at 02:13 AM. Reason: more fixes
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post #54 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 02:12 AM
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Well according to Tom Barr your water hardness is ideal:

"any plant can be grown at a KH of 5 and a GH of 5-10, or less. This would not be considered "soft" water, actually it would be ideal." - Tom Barr

The thing that throws me is that your saying all your plants other than the Anubias are not growing well. That to me points to a very fundamental thing, not a tweak of something like Ca, Mg, Cl, S.
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post #55 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 02:17 AM Thread Starter
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Well according to Tom Barr your water hardness is ideal:

"any plant can be grown at a KH of 5 and a GH of 5-10, or less. This would not be considered "soft" water, actually it would be ideal." - Tom Barr

The thing that throws me is that your saying all your plants other than the Anubias are not growing well. That to me points to a very fundamental thing, not a tweak of something like Ca, Mg, Cl, S.
I wish I knew what kind of Ludwigia this is because it might be growing normally..
I got it very recently so the older growth is probably emersed, but its turning coppery and the leaves are getting smaller.



Ammania has weird weird new growth


I don't really have any plants in a different genus other than the DHG and the Ludwigia and Anubias.


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post #56 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 02:20 AM
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I got mine from GLA too.

Using these directions: Planted Tank Fertilizer: ?Estimative Index (EI) Fertilization Method - Green Leaf Aquariums

The only potential gotcha is overdosing based on tank size. When I first mixed ferts it was for the 40-60 gallon tank (I have a 50 gallon tank).

I probably only have 40-45 ish actual gallons of water, and the dosage for a 40 gallon (20-40) is HALF of the dosage for the next column.

I just halved my dose (im dosing from the 20-40 column for my 50g tank), and everything has been great.

The point is that based on that table, you can get a wide range of actual doses depending on how you interpret the chart.

Also, I ran out of Equilibrium a couple weeks ago and there was a big uptick in algae. I've gone back to my previous EI dosing and .5 tbsp of Equilibrium into each 10g of tank change water. (For me, it only takes about a HALF dose of equilibrium to get a +2 GH.)

OTH, I have MGOC soil and 30ppm CO2 24/7, so I've been living the charmed life.
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post #57 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 02:26 AM Thread Starter
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I got mine from GLA too.

Using these directions: Planted Tank Fertilizer: ?Estimative Index (EI) Fertilization Method - Green Leaf Aquariums

The only potential gotcha is overdosing based on tank size. When I first mixed ferts it was for the 40-60 gallon tank (I have a 50 gallon tank).

I probably only have 40-45 ish actual gallons of water, and the dosage for a 40 gallon (20-40) is HALF of the dosage for the next column.

I just halved my dose (im dosing from the 20-40 column for my 50g tank), and everything has been great.

The point is that based on that table, you can get a wide range of actual doses depending on how you interpret the chart.

Also, I ran out of Equilibrium a couple weeks ago and there was a big uptick in algae. I've gone back to my previous EI dosing and .5 tbsp of Equilibrium into each 10g of tank change water. (For me, it only takes about a HALF dose of equilibrium to get a +2 GH.)

OTH, I have MGOC soil and 30ppm CO2 24/7, so I've been living the charmed life.
my MGOC tanks were amazing, I could grow Baby Tears and it pearled in a low light no co2 tank.

I'm on the 20-40 gal area with 33 gallons and followed that, but I've also checked on rotala butterfly and aquariumcalculator.com (both give me slightly different dosing) but they're similar for everything except one tells me 3/8 tsp vs 1/4 tsp Kno3.

I'm really interested to try Ammonium Sulfate, which I have 5 lbs of..
Assuming my ph stays low it should be safe.
Alas I need to figure out these issues first.
I miss the way my plants used to look..

So pink and bushy, I don't even see other peoples rotala have so many dense leaves at the tip.

Bump: https://barrreport.com/threads/rotala-kill-tank.13975/

This guy has the same issues, and devoted an entire tank to just the plants that get stunted..
A few paragraphs down he says "In my tanks, these plants do better with high light, high CO2, rich substrate, EI level macros and low micros. By 'low micros,' I mean 20-30% of typical EI levels"

I DEMAND ANSWERS =[


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post #58 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 03:30 AM Thread Starter
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Hmmm.. is there any such thing as too much co2?
I wonder if my pH is just disgustingly low, its certainly as low as I can read on the API test kit, atleast if I test at the end of the day..


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post #59 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 04:17 AM
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This might not be useful at all (and that's fine) but I found that macranda grows better for me when I place a root tab nearby. Dosing EI as well.


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post #60 of 144 (permalink) Old 11-15-2017, 04:43 AM Thread Starter
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This might not be useful at all (and that's fine) but I found that macranda grows better for me when I place a root tab nearby. Dosing EI as well.


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Thank you! I'm sure that helps but mine isn't really struggling so much as its deformed so I need to figure that out first!


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