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post #1 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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What is happening here?

After 3 weeks- ludwigia won't grow after shedding all leaves- it has actually been more than a week since they lost their leaves. Help!
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post #2 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 05:42 PM
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Those are in pretty bad shape, if they still have roots that are white and aren't turning to mush, there is still a chance, but i have seen that happen to plants that needed more light, so you may just not have enough light for that specific species.

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post #3 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 05:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sohankpatel View Post
Those are in pretty bad shape, if they still have roots that are white and aren't turning to mush, there is still a chance, but i have seen that happen to plants that needed more light, so you may just not have enough light for that specific species.
I agree ^^^ Did they ever look really good or did you get them and they just slowly deteriorated? How did the leaves look before they fell off? Were they "cupped"?

If it did look good at some point and suddenly stopped, were there any parameter changes you made around this time?

I believe this is a relatively light demanding plant. I think in general the rule is that plants with reddish leaves need a lot of light.
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post #4 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 06:31 PM Thread Starter
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I suspected the same when I first started the tank. I now have both a Finnex Fugeray Planted+ AND a Finnex Stingray on this 20L tank. I originally feared the Planted+ alone would be overkill for a 12" deep tank. But since I noticed a few dark areas and the leaves started shedding, I supplemented with the Stingray about 10 days ago. The roots haven't really developed at all with these stems, although they are not mushy yet. It's more like they got hard and spindly, and the buds won't grow out.
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post #5 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 06:42 PM Thread Starter
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It only looked good for a few days, then started shedding between days 5-15. It's been about a week in the state you see in the picture. I don't think they were cupping that much - just falling off. Is my current light arrangement still not enough? Hard to believe. The light seems strong enough that I am countering green algae now on a lot of leaves, doing water changes every few days, clipping algae stricken leaves, and reducing the light to 7 hours a day. I am so perplexed. I am using co2 - about 2 bubbles a second - don't have a drop checker yet, but I have a pretty good GLA regulator and atomic inline diffuser. Also using GLA PPS Pro fertilizers daily, although given all the dropped leaves I am wondering whether I don't need so much fertilizing yet. On the other hand, some of the leaves on some plants seem pale/yellowing - so it's hard to tell. The substrate is Eco-Complete. PH is 6.5; GH 30ppm; KH 40ppm; NO2 0ppm; NO3 20ppm.
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post #6 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miktrebor View Post
I suspected the same when I first started the tank. I now have both a Finnex Fugeray Planted+ AND a Finnex Stingray on this 20L tank. I originally feared the Planted+ alone would be overkill for a 12" deep tank. But since I noticed a few dark areas and the leaves started shedding, I supplemented with the Stingray about 10 days ago. The roots haven't really developed at all with these stems, although they are not mushy yet. It's more like they got hard and spindly, and the buds won't grow out.
Almost 100% sure its a light problem. Both of those light together might give a decent par, but the second one may have come too late.
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post #7 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 07:31 PM
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I agree ^^^ Did they ever look really good or did you get them and they just slowly deteriorated? How did the leaves look before they fell off? Were they "cupped"?

If it did look good at some point and suddenly stopped, were there any parameter changes you made around this time?

I believe this is a relatively light demanding plant. I think in general the rule is that plants with reddish leaves need a lot of light.
The leaves just slowly fell off, the plant I am referencing is Rotala Macrandra, a fairly difficult plant if you dont have enough light. The leaves dropped off and after 3 weeks, the stems rotted away. I have had huge success with it after upping my light, mind you this is 140 par in the center on a 55g.

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Originally Posted by Highseq View Post
I agree ^^^ Did they ever look really good or did you get them and they just slowly deteriorated? How did the leaves look before they fell off? Were they "cupped"?

If it did look good at some point and suddenly stopped, were there any parameter changes you made around this time?

I believe this is a relatively light demanding plant. I think in general the rule is that plants with reddish leaves need a lot of light.
The leaves just slowly fell off, the plant I am referencing is Rotala Macrandra, a fairly difficult plant if you dont have enough light. The leaves dropped off and after 3 weeks, the stems rotted away. I have had huge success with it after upping my light, mind you this is 140 par in the center on a 55g.

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post #8 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 07:51 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the insight! It is making me think i should have gotten a ray2, which def seemed too much for a shallow tank when i was shopping for light. My ludwigia repens also dropped all their leaves too even though they are 6" directly under the 30"finnex planted+ light which I gathered was considered high-light at such close range. (The peruensis in contrast were arguably off to the side, getting less par.)
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post #9 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by miktrebor View Post
Is my current light arrangement still not enough? Hard to believe.

Well that is up for you to decide but the finnex stingray PAR in a 17" inch deep tank is about 30 at max.
The Fugeray planted + at 12 inches is about 61.

These are just some quick number I found of people measuring their lights in water.. I'm not saying these are 100% accurate but maybe could get you a ballpark figure. You said your at about 12 " so that would probably put you in the neighborhood of 100 PAR with both of these on at 100% which is actually pretty dang good.

I really don't know much about that plant though, so I cant say I suppose.
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post #10 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 09:23 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah, that's why the inadequate lighting theory is puzzling for a super shallow tank. ALTHOUGH I really do agree that the light PAR deficiency may have been real, depending on placement of the ludwigia, esp before I added the Stingray. The Fugeray LED does not spread light well, IMHO - if you're not right under it, it isn't that bright. During week 3 of this tank, the green algae on leaves is really coming on strong (which I know can be caused by other issues, but in the main I did suspect (before posting this thread) that it was because of strong, not weak, light + not thriving plants to compete=lots of algae). Btw I don't have any fish in the tank right now and am clearing out dead leaves as they fall off.

Another part of this mystery: except for my echinodorus swords and anubias, all of which came with roots (and weirdly my HC baby tears which are holding on), none of the other plants are doing all that well either. Including rotala, myrio, wisteria, crypts, dwarf hairgrass. Roots aren't growing. I attributed it to new tank shock, but after 3 weeks I'm thinking it must be more than that (and algae is not helping matters right now). The lighting can't be the issue for all these plants, can it?? I'll attach a few more pix soon.
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post #11 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by miktrebor View Post
Yeah, that's why the inadequate lighting theory is puzzling for a super shallow tank. ALTHOUGH I really do agree that the light PAR deficiency may have been real, depending on placement of the ludwigia, esp before I added the Stingray. The Fugeray LED does not spread light well, IMHO - if you're not right under it, it isn't that bright. During week 3 of this tank, the green algae on leaves is really coming on strong (which I know can be caused by other issues, but in the main I did suspect (before posting this thread) that it was because of strong, not weak, light + not thriving plants to compete=lots of algae). Btw I don't have any fish in the tank right now and am clearing out dead leaves as they fall off.

Another part of this mystery: except for my echinodorus swords and anubias, all of which came with roots (and weirdly my HC baby tears which are holding on), none of the other plants are doing all that well either. Including rotala, myrio, wisteria, crypts, dwarf hairgrass. Roots aren't growing. I attributed it to new tank shock, but after 3 weeks I'm thinking it must be more than that (and algae is not helping matters right now). The lighting can't be the issue for all these plants, can it?? I'll attach a few more pix soon.
I doubt lighting is the issue for all of those plants. For instance I have read people keeping anubias under pretty regular CFL lights and them doing ok.

Roots not growing---- I just don't know. Your dosing a full range of ferts.... This might be a silly suggestion as I am not even sure how well this stuff works... but seachem selles a product called flourish advance which isnt really a fert but contains hormones to promote root and stem growth. I have read mixed reviews. Also even if it did work, it is probably a bandaid for some other kind of problem. I am not familiar with your fert package/ method. Are you using CSM +B for your traces? I remember some people saying they add extra iron because they feel CSM +B is a little lean in iron. I do not know how true this is..

As for the algae it could be too much phosphate. Do you use any kind of PH buffers? API sells a phosphate test kit. Levels people aim for with the EI method are between 1 and 3 ppm.. maybe something worth looking into.
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post #12 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 09:51 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you - I will test the phosphates next. Need to get the API test on that. I actually don't use a PH buffer (although I have Seachem acidic/alkaline buffer) because the PH in my tap water seemed to be in good range to begin with, and I thought the conventional wisdom was not to mess around with PH if you don't need to.

THe PPS-Pro package I use from GLA does include CSM+B micros, but at only 1/10 the dosage of the macros. (With all these dying stems, do the plants even have the capacity to absorb nutrients? I kinda think not. Such a chicken and egg issue here!)

To clarify, the anubia and swords are doing okay. Most of the other plants that didn't come with deep roots are definitely not doing ok!
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post #13 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-02-2017, 11:02 PM
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Thank you - I will test the phosphates next. Need to get the API test on that. I actually don't use a PH buffer (although I have Seachem acidic/alkaline buffer) because the PH in my tap water seemed to be in good range to begin with, and I thought the conventional wisdom was not to mess around with PH if you don't need to.

THe PPS-Pro package I use from GLA does include CSM+B micros, but at only 1/10 the dosage of the macros. (With all these dying stems, do the plants even have the capacity to absorb nutrients? I kinda think not. Such a chicken and egg issue here!)

To clarify, the anubia and swords are doing okay. Most of the other plants that didn't come with deep roots are definitely not doing ok!
Hmm. Im really running out of ideas here. Your ph kh and gh in acceptable ranges? Do you ever dose extra water conditioner? Or do frequent water changes?
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post #14 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 12:13 AM
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I'm guessing the ludwigia was grown emmersed. It did not handle the transition well.

What is your water change schedule?

Can you list your dosing routine including quantities of Macros and Micros.

PS, might be time to give up on the Ludwigia, it making a come back is slim. Or leave it as an experiment.


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Last edited by slipfinger; 08-03-2017 at 12:16 AM. Reason: edit
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post #15 of 73 (permalink) Old 08-03-2017, 04:41 PM Thread Starter
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Some more photos - do they help with what might be going on in any way?
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