Cleaning Water with Ultrasound - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-02-2016, 08:47 AM Thread Starter
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Cleaning Water with Ultrasound

Cleaning Water with Ultrasound


I had an odd thought out of the blue this morning about cleaning water with sound.


So I got up to some reading. turns out it is possible. I guess one would do it in the sump to reduce disturbance of the fish.


Cleaning Water with Ultrasound - Scientific American
Quote:
To figure out which frequency of ultrasound would be most efficient for water purification, the scientists looked at another process related to cavitation called sonoluminescence, in which water bubbles bombarded with sound actually emit light.
Quote:
Chemicals may not be needed to destroy water pollutants, according to a new study in the Journal of Physical Chemistry A. Instead ultrasound at just the right frequency might do the trick.

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Hua's team placed a glass container of about one liter of water on a steel transducer that produced ultrasound waves. They also dropped 1,4 Dioxane, an organic contaminant, into the water. Then they zapped the mix with ultrasound frequencies of 205, 358, 618 and 1,071 kilohertz.

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They found that at 358 kilohertz the compound reacted faster than at any other frequency. Hua hopes ultrasound will become an alternative to the conventional chemical methods of water purification.
I wish they ran the study with more than one contaminant.
I suspect different elements would have different frequencies. It would be kinda cool to have a transducer in your sump that only eliminates specific compounds and atoms, like ammonia
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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-02-2016, 03:51 PM
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I bet if you set up the ultrasound on a slowly oscillating frequency you could hit multiple contaminants over time


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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-02-2016, 04:04 PM
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Doesn't UV do this already? It breaks up a wide range of organic compounds.
Ultrasound might take up less energy which could be a benefit.

Our water utility here use UV in a addition to chlorine.


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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-03-2016, 01:17 AM
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After you clean it, you can polish it with some diatomaceous earth.
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-03-2016, 11:33 PM
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I appreciate how you are thinking out of the box. I do know that ultrasound/sonic cleaning is a very common method to clean jewelry. I would imagine it would be very expensive and need a very very slow flow rate to be of any practical use.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 12:33 AM
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I suspect that, just as in using UV light for purification, the rate of flow needed to obtain the desired results would be proportional to the intensity (volume for sound) of the output, once you determined the best frequency(ies) for what you were trying to break down. I think it would take a very high volume to be effective; did they mention what SPL (Sound Pressure Level) was used to achieve results? High levels of certain sounds, just like intense light at certain wavelengths, can have some pretty strange effects on biologicals and matter (like the materials used in equipment).

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I appreciate how you are thinking out of the box. I do know that ultrasound/sonic cleaning is a very common method to clean jewelry...
Maybe you just came up with a new way to clean ich off of Jewel Cichlids!

Last edited by Darkblade48; 07-06-2016 at 07:08 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 12:43 AM
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Maybe you just came up with a new way to clean ich off of Jewel Cichlids!
Or, liquify them?

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-04-2016, 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Nordic View Post
Cleaning Water with Ultrasound


I had an odd thought out of the blue this morning about cleaning water with sound.


So I got up to some reading. turns out it is possible. I guess one would do it in the sump to reduce disturbance of the fish.


Cleaning Water with Ultrasound - Scientific American



I wish they ran the study with more than one contaminant.
I suspect different elements would have different frequencies. It would be kinda cool to have a transducer in your sump that only eliminates specific compounds and atoms, like ammonia
LETS DO IT!!!!!!!!!

Make a prototype and we can present it to the shark tank?

Do you know what shark tank is in South Africa? The TV show in which you present the idea to a panel of billionaires and they decide to partner with you and give you money for the concept?

Let me tell you, those Salt water reefers spend big money on the hobby. If you could vaporize the water containment at the molecular level, you could have a maintenance free aquarium.

Lets look into this more.

75 Gallon community planted Aquarium. Pearl Gourami,Golden barbs, zebra, pearl Danios,black neon tetra, glow-light, denson barb, Rasboras, cherry barbs, fancy tail guppies, hachet fish, rosy tetra, flame tetra
29 gallon Gold fish tank(1 large fish)
55 gallon planted red cherry shrimp tank, otto, neon tetra, white cloud.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-05-2016, 08:05 PM
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There's a couple different things going on here. Ultrasonic cleaning, which is commonly used to clean jewelry uses Khz frequencies to generate micro bubbles which collapse at extreme pressures, basically blasting the dirt off of objects. changing the frequency changes the size of the microcavitation bubbles which allows you to reach bigger or smaller surfaces. This is good to cleaning objects with fine details or removing things stuck in very small spaces, however it does not in any way purify the water.

Cavitation is also used to "clean" water by essentially using larger collapsed bubbles to create ozone which rips apart organics in the water and can sterilize it. I do not know the effect of ozone on fish, but I don't think it would be healthy as my gut feeling. This cleans the water similarly to the way a UV sterilizer does, but does not remove anything. This is a method used in fracking to remove scale producing bacteria from the recycled water used in their systems, so it is something that can be done and may even work in a fish tank if it doesn't kill your fish.

The article posted seems to use the heat and pressure as a more direct way of reducing organics. The article did not cite the JPC A article and i'm having trouble locating it so I can't comment on any of the specifics. If anyone can find it let me know and I can comment further.


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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-06-2016, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
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C It would be kinda cool to have a transducer in your sump that only eliminates specific compounds and atoms, like ammonia
I never did like physical chemistry so maybe someone more informed can correct me.

It might work great on organic particles but what does one do with the leftovers ? I mean ultrasound will not eliminate atoms, it is not nuclear fission. C4H8O2 (1,4 Dioxane) has some nice elements but what do you do when you have highly reactive metals such as Cu, Na from your breakdown ? Also, ozone is toxic for plants /fish if certain ppm are crossed. Not sure how happy the fauna and flora would be...

You could of course bind them to some kind of flocculent and take them out of the water but at this point it feels like scratching the itch behind your left year with a chainsaw in your right hand more so since there are easier methods to reduce organics (AC, UV, WC, other 2 letter abbreviations)
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 02:54 AM
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If memory serves there are people that use ozone in reef tanks. I believe it increases the efficiency of skimming


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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 03:06 AM
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I use it on my planted tank. I made a couple of threads asking for help/ideas but no one had anything to say.

It was very expensive, had to buy a lot of special stuff, have to stay on top of changing carbon so I don't hurt myself or kill the fish, and I don't know if it's even doing anything at all but using it anyway because I already made the investment. I wouldn't do it over again for freshwater.

It works by oxidizing organics. People use it with skimmers as a reactor but you are not supposed to. You have to be aware of what kind of plastic it's exposed to and you have to filter both the air and water after it exists a reactor (need a reactor, but they are all designed for saltwater except large ones for ponds) You have to use an redox controller to use it safely. Mole for mole it is more toxic than chlorine.

It only exists for a few seconds in the water before oxidizing the organics and breaking down into O2 and oxygen radicals, but once there's little to nothing left to oxidize it will start to oxidize the surfaces of the fish gills. That's why you have to filter it out of the water. It will do the same thing to odors in the air, but it also oxidizes the lining of your lungs and everything else. It's really a PITA.

Fun fact: I was youtubing videos about it and some people do Ozone enemas as some pseudoscientific health practices. Some shoot up with it. Stupid.

Last edited by Clinton Parsons; 07-07-2016 at 03:17 AM. Reason: n,
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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I can't stand ozone, it makes my nose/ears feel funny inside.
I hate going to malls using it
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-07-2016, 03:29 AM
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It's really weird whenever I plugged in the generator, just playing around with it before my reactor came. It didn't smell sweet like everyone says, it smells like friendly bleach if that makes any sense. I can like feel it in my body, it's really weird.


Never noticed it during storms before but now I'm acutely aware of it.

You can see the iron it oxidizes out of the water deposited on the filter pad that holds in the carbon. Rust. A bunch of yellow stuff is also deposited. I guess those are oxidized organics. I will post pictures next time if anyone cares.
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