Does mineral-rich substrate make ferts unnecessary? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 5 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 02:32 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
comatoast's Avatar
 
PTrader: (20/92%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Nashville,TN
Posts: 740
Does mineral-rich substrate make ferts unnecessary?

The title is my question- after reading numerous posts on this forum and others, I'm confused. Do you only use ferts if your substrate is just gravel or sand? Does Fluorite reduce or eliminate fert requirements? What about AquaSoil? The mineralized topsoil thread seems to indicate only minimal amounts of potassium are necessary when it is used. If unabsorbed ferts are a cause of algae, and mineral-rich substrates make the dosing unnecessary, I would really appreciate confirmation of that fact. Your help and advice is appreciated, as always.

"The art of being wise is the art of knowing what to overlook." -William James


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
comatoast is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 5 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 02:41 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
bradac56's Avatar
 
PTrader: (9/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Blue Springs, MO
Posts: 1,157
Send a message via AIM to bradac56 Send a message via MSN to bradac56 Send a message via Yahoo to bradac56 Send a message via Skype™ to bradac56
Quote:
Originally Posted by comatoast View Post
The title is my question- after reading numerous posts on this forum and others, I'm confused. Do you only use ferts if your substrate is just gravel or sand? Does Fluorite reduce or eliminate fert requirements? What about AquaSoil? The mineralized topsoil thread seems to indicate only minimal amounts of potassium are necessary when it is used. If unabsorbed ferts are a cause of algae, and mineral-rich substrates make the dosing unnecessary, I would really appreciate confirmation of that fact. Your help and advice is appreciated, as always.

Long term you will need fertz no matter what substrate you use since anything in it is leached out, that includes ADA products.

~

No Fluorite is an inert substrate just like Eco/SMS/SAS/PFS so you would need to add ferts to them.

ADA and MTS starts out loaded with traces but they are leached out over time. There is a few threads here and on other forums about the lifespan of ADA (about a year) and MTS would be similar.

- Brad

Proud member of the
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
and the
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


VICTOR PIMP #58 -
VTS-253A-320 x2, VTS-253D-320, VTS-253A-1993-320.
bradac56 is offline  
post #3 of 5 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 03:10 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,241
Quote:
Originally Posted by comatoast View Post
The title is my question- after reading numerous posts on this forum and others, I'm confused. Do you only use ferts if your substrate is just gravel or sand? Does Fluorite reduce or eliminate fert requirements? What about AquaSoil? The mineralized topsoil thread seems to indicate only minimal amounts of potassium are necessary when it is used. If unabsorbed ferts are a cause of algae, and mineral-rich substrates make the dosing unnecessary, I would really appreciate confirmation of that fact. Your help and advice is appreciated, as always.
Here's my recollection and summation of the details.

Flourite does not have any ferts, except some difficult to extract Fe.
Aquasoil does, but it doesn't last forever.
Mineralized soil has a lot of ferts.

If I recall, I am quoting Tom Barr when I say that the best would be to fertilize the roots and fertilize the water column. Depending on your light and CO2, you can do one or the other. APC has a lot of fans of the low-tech mineralized substrate method, where they don't dose at all.

I don't think anyone says that unused ferts are a cause of algae, but rather the imbalance associated, hence EI dosing. EI dosing just makes sure that there are no shortages of any main fert.

65 gallon journal:

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
kid creole is offline  
 
post #4 of 5 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 05:37 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
wkndracer's Avatar
 
PTrader: (68/100%)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Citrus County,Florida
Posts: 6,186
Short version. (best I can do)
Top soil or potting soil capped with,,, something. You get a spike of everything including CO2 from the bacteria that are on the high end for a few months. Phosphate levels have been my biggest challenge. 2wpg no filter very low tech and cheap. Up to several years balanced correctly no dosing. People have stated 5 years continuous runs on the same tank and substrate.
Diana Walstad style.

Mineralized soil doesn't have the unstable starting burst and supplies no natural CO2 but is great for rooted plants. Kens the guy here on the stuff.(IMO) Dosing only as needs are indicated by the plants.

Flourite, Eco Complete, etc are basically a root grabber that supply's next to nothing so EI, PPS, root tabs are needed.

Whether it's by overfeeding your live stock or chemical fertilization something growing requires something to eat. Depending on how you decide to tank every way it's done has advantages and problems / needs.
How much light energy you supply can dictate everything else you do.

I'm running 5 tanks and only two are even close to the same type setup.
I dose two tanks daily 3+wpg w/CO2, nothing at all dosed 2wpg natural, 3x weekly maintaining traces, K2SO4 and excel as a carbon substitute at 1.5wpg.

Tough question you've asked because so much applies to what you need to do maintaining a tank as one thing is changed it dictates another.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

If at first you don't succeed,,, keep kicking it
RubberSideDownOnTheLanding,
2-75g planted, 3-55g planted, 110g w/30g sump, 2018 update returning to sanity (Nutz)
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
wkndracer is offline  
post #5 of 5 (permalink) Old 06-30-2009, 06:11 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
plantbrain's Avatar
 
PTrader: (267/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The swamp
Posts: 13,609
Quote:
Originally Posted by kid creole View Post
I don't think anyone says that unused ferts are a cause of algae, but rather the imbalance associated,
Well, many of the soil ferts only crowd sure like to suggest and some outright claim this. When pressed, they hedge, going with "the imbalance" malarkey...............yet never being specific about what the imbalance is, leaving the question very much unanswered.

There's no "imbalance" (what the frick does that even mean?). There's a limiting factor, maybe N, maybe P, maybe CO2........they do not know.
They do not test sediments or nutrients there, just the water column, the nutrients are in the sediment however, so test kits are useless for them in answering this question.

They only way to know is from the plants' health, but that can be influenced heavily from poor CO2 etc. Good health you can be fairly confident about(sort of serves as a control reference), but poor health could be many things. Only if you induce it on purpose specifically, can you figure those out and what they look like. But few, if any, bother to do it.

"I don't know, something's wrong" is about all they got. Instead many suggest they do know when they don't. Some make stuff up, some based it extremely liberally on something they read off the web.

If you dose both locations, then you cover any and all limitations and both methods are enhanced/not left to such unknowns and chance. You hedge your bets so both locations are well supplied of nutrients.

Then there's no "imbalance".
While it does not answer the specific question, it does cover all the bases for plants as far as nutrients. From there, you can look elsewhere.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
plantbrain is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome