Another deep sand bed thread - The Planted Tank Forum
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-07-2015, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 132
Another deep sand bed thread

Some of you have warned me that my deep sand bed will create anaerobic pockets and hydrogen sulfide gas.

I have 2-5" of substrate in my tank. It is very deep and hilly. It is pure substrate with no supports.

After doing my research, half of you say it will go bad, and I need deep root feeders in the hills. The other half of you say it will be fine as long as nothing disturbs it.

There's absolutely no way I am tearing this scape down and redoing it, especially with my plants that are well established.

What should I do?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	20150605_131210_1433689159695.jpg
Views:	185
Size:	41.4 KB
ID:	482593  

dasit88 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-07-2015, 03:10 PM
Captain
 
Immortal1's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Iowa
Posts: 3,001
I would suggest some Malaysian trumpet snails. From what I have read, they burrow through the substraight much like worms in dirt. Should give you the aeration that you need.
Also, nice looking scape!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Immortal1 is offline  
post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-07-2015, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Immortal1 View Post
I would suggest some Malaysian trumpet snails. From what I have read, they burrow through the substraight much like worms in dirt. Should give you the aeration that you need.
Also, nice looking scape!
Thanks, I really took my time on it, and I would hate to tear the hills down.

I think it will be okay. Many aquascapes have substrate pushed really high in places.

Last edited by dasit88; 06-07-2015 at 03:43 PM.
dasit88 is offline  
 
post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 04:16 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Northern California
Posts: 10
MTS dont burrow that deep. Really only half an inch or so.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
10planted is offline  
post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 05:33 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2015
Location: the desert
Posts: 541
I have two tanks with only sand substrate and I carefully poked a chopstick around after a few weeks to get the trapped gas out. After that I had a snail outbreak from a new plant and put an assassin snail in there and have not had a buildup since.

I really think it is mostly when a tank is new that it occurs anyway.
keymastr is offline  
post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 07:08 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 132
Take a look at this scape. The substrate is atleast 5" high. Looks great.

http://i.imgur.com/pzSiXjq.jpg
dasit88 is offline  
post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 03:36 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2015
Location: London
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasit88 View Post
Some of you have warned me that my deep sand bed will create anaerobic pockets and hydrogen sulfide gas.

I have 2-5" of substrate in my tank. It is very deep and hilly. It is pure substrate with no supports.

After doing my research, half of you say it will go bad, and I need deep root feeders in the hills. The other half of you say it will be fine as long as nothing disturbs it.

There's absolutely no way I am tearing this scape down and redoing it, especially with my plants that are well established.

What should I do?
i am currently using a deep sand bed in my tank. when i was looking for information people were attacking it like it was black bread algae. the thing is that it can work but you must do everything correct. there are alot of myths that people have made about the DSB which arent completely true.

for a deep sand bed to work you need:
MTS - they stir the sand which expands the aerobic layer, break down mulm to a size that bacteria can process

Live Californian Blackworms - they do everything the MTS do but better, they eat mulm and bacteria in the subtrate and help make tunnels to expand the aerobic layer and push down the anaerobic layer.

Plants (Vital) - plants use the metals such as iron that is produced by the bacteria, the roots provide oxygen to the anaerobic layers. aerobic bacteria live on the plants roots and ozidize the methane to C02 and hydrogen sulfate to a harmless solution. with out the plants the DSB wont work properly and can cause problems

Assassin snails - do what the MTS and also control snail population to help keep a balance.

i have plants, assassin snails and MTS in my sand bed and they all do an awesome job. i had blackworms but my betta eat them.

Things you MUST NOT DO:

you must not vacuum the sand bed - the mulm is what fuels the bacteria in the sand bed. also if you do deep vacuuming you will disturb the aerobic and anaerobic layers too much, kill a ton of bacteria and release gasses that will turn you tank into an apocalypse

DO NOT us cories, loaches etc to steer the sand - snails disturb the sand just enough so that there arent any issues. however, bottom dwellers disturb it too much and will cause more damage then good

DO NOT up root the plants, EVER - unless you want to release hell on your aquarium i advice you leave the plants alone. that means no rearranging. if a plant is dying then cut it off and leave the roots in the sand to decompose.

P.S make sure the sand isnt to fine but isnt to big (grain sizes). pool sand seems to be the best. also it must be 4 inches min and 5 inches max

im only scrapping the surface with this because there is ALOT to know. if you have any questions i will be happy to answer them

Last edited by Aqua Hero; 06-08-2015 at 03:37 PM. Reason: forgot to mention something
Aqua Hero is offline  
post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 03:55 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
Dead2fall's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Nj
Posts: 1,137
I do all that stuff with 2-4" deep sand and I've never had an issue.
Dead2fall is offline  
post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 04:04 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2015
Location: London
Posts: 139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dead2fall View Post
I do all that stuff with 2-4" deep sand and I've never had an issue.
thats not a deep sand bed then. the deep sand bed method is used my most saltwater tank people to reduce nitrates from the water. just because its a few inches deep doesnt mean anything will happen. there are some variables you need to consider
Aqua Hero is offline  
post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 04:14 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (7/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Merriam, Ks
Posts: 1,949
I had a deep sand bed in my 8.7g bow front. First time using sand in a tank. I had atleast a 5 inch bed at the back of the tank, with dirt under the sand. It ran great for a month. Then one day I nudged the tank while walking by it. I kid you not, I had a volcano type eruption happen. The bottom of the tank just boom, dirt, sand launching upwards and a horrible smell. The betta in the tank actually jumped out. He went into another tank for temp. I learned my lesson that day. I have one tank with a deep sand bed, no dirt though. From time to time I will use a bamboo skewer and poke some holes prior to a water change. I will get some gas bubbles released and go about my day.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Italionstallion888 is offline  
post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-08-2015, 06:18 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 132
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Hero View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dasit88 View Post
Some of you have warned me that my deep sand bed will create anaerobic pockets and hydrogen sulfide gas.

I have 2-5" of substrate in my tank. It is very deep and hilly. It is pure substrate with no supports.

After doing my research, half of you say it will go bad, and I need deep root feeders in the hills. The other half of you say it will be fine as long as nothing disturbs it.

There's absolutely no way I am tearing this scape down and redoing it, especially with my plants that are well established.

What should I do?
i am currently using a deep sand bed in my tank. when i was looking for information people were attacking it like it was black bread algae. the thing is that it can work but you must do everything correct. there are alot of myths that people have made about the DSB which arent completely true.

for a deep sand bed to work you need:
MTS - they stir the sand which expands the aerobic layer, break down mulm to a size that bacteria can process

Live Californian Blackworms - they do everything the MTS do but better, they eat mulm and bacteria in the subtrate and help make tunnels to expand the aerobic layer and push down the anaerobic layer.

Plants (Vital) - plants use the metals such as iron that is produced by the bacteria, the roots provide oxygen to the anaerobic layers. aerobic bacteria live on the plants roots and ozidize the methane to C02 and hydrogen sulfate to a harmless solution. with out the plants the DSB wont work properly and can cause problems

Assassin snails - do what the MTS and also control snail population to help keep a balance.

i have plants, assassin snails and MTS in my sand bed and they all do an awesome job. i had blackworms but my betta eat them.

Things you MUST NOT DO:

you must not vacuum the sand bed - the mulm is what fuels the bacteria in the sand bed. also if you do deep vacuuming you will disturb the aerobic and anaerobic layers too much, kill a ton of bacteria and release gasses that will turn you tank into an apocalypse

DO NOT us cories, loaches etc to steer the sand - snails disturb the sand just enough so that there arent any issues. however, bottom dwellers disturb it too much and will cause more damage then good

DO NOT up root the plants, EVER - unless you want to release hell on your aquarium i advice you leave the plants alone. that means no rearranging. if a plant is dying then cut it off and leave the roots in the sand to decompose.

P.S make sure the sand isnt to fine but isnt to big (grain sizes). pool sand seems to be the best. also it must be 4 inches min and 5 inches max

im only scrapping the surface with this because there is ALOT to know. if you have any questions i will be happy to answer them
Thanks for the info, it was really useful. The only problem is I want this tank to be an aquascape, and having a bunch of snails makes it ugly, and they can become a serious nuisance after a while.

I am going to have the entire tank carpeted in HC. Its roots are over 2 inches long already. Will this help?
dasit88 is offline  
post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 12:50 AM
Newbie
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Lakewood Ranch, Florida
Posts: 1
I had a 5 - 6" sand bed in a 225 gallon tank for 1.5 years. Really fine white sand. It was beautiful for a couple months but then it was to hard to clean and always showed off the fish poop. So I cleaned it out and put in river gravel for a fish only tank. When I cleaned it out I did get a few small gas bubbles but also I found the sand was full of worms. Like the kind you find in the back yard. The fish loved them. They ate all of them, but I think they kept the sand stired up enough to keep the gas down.
kquinn03 is offline  
post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 02:14 AM
Newbie
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Middlebury, Vt
Posts: 3
I think you're doing OK, and the advise from Aqua Hero is pretty good. I have sometimes even collected wild bottom dwellers to introduce into deep beds in natural aquariums, but some also came in with plants I collected. Bacteria in the anaerobic layer can help remove nitrate by converting it into nitrogen gas-so some bubbles aren't a bad thing. But plant roots will do a lot to help aerate and absorb nutrients.
hortus is offline  
post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-10-2015, 03:06 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 6
I think you'll be fine... I wouldn't even quite consider your setup to be a DSB, as it's only deep in a couple spots. If I were in your shoes, I definitely wouldn't change anything, except maybe add snails and worms, as AquaHero suggested, because they seem like a great idea anyway.

My only experience is a 75g with 4" EcoComplete substrate sitting on top of egg crate with screen on top to make a half-inch gap underneath the substrate. Never had an issue. Ran the tank for a couple years on a high-light/CO2/fertilized regimen.
cowman345 is offline  
post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 07-11-2015, 07:52 AM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Herndon, VA
Posts: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aqua Hero View Post
thats not a deep sand bed then. the deep sand bed method is used my most saltwater tank people to reduce nitrates from the water. just because its a few inches deep doesnt mean anything will happen. there are some variables you need to consider
I wouldn't change your advice, but for a minor detail....most people with saltwater do NOT use a DSB in saltwater....it's a great concept - and obviously it works - but seems to be considered too fragile for most people's tanks. (Not saying it is...but that seems the perception.)

While most people with saltwater do have some kind of sand, a good percentage have none at all. Those that do have some tend to keep it under 2"...mostly under 1"...purely to keep it low/no-maintenance.

Folks rely pretty universally on so-called "live rock" for denitrification, which acts as an extremely porous media. There are many artificial ceramic media that seek to duplicate this porosity, but I haven't tested any of them.

Lotsa words for a minor detail. Great to see some folks trying this in freshwater - something I've wondered about!!
mcarroll is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome