Black Diamond Sand cutting cories - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-10-2020, 07:52 PM
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That's funny, I had almost the exact opposite experience from you. When I had BDBS my pygmy corydoras had dainty little barbels that were unaffected by the substrate. But I saw very limited root development in the sand!

You could definitely go with an aquasoil, which is really all I use nowadays. If you prefer to stick with sand, @Seattle_Aquarist uses HTH Pool Filter Sand which seems to be working to grow plants in his discus tank. @Deanna swears by the CaribSea Peace River Gravel, which is probably what I would try next if I was going to go back to a non-soil based substrate. It seems to me that grain size is important for plants-- too small and the substrate compacts which hurts root development and water flow to the root zone. Too large and the roots can have trouble anchoring in the substrate, plus any root tabs you put in there will just be immediately exposed to the water column. The Peace River gravel seems like it would be a nice middle ground as a very fine gravel/very coarse sand. Plus the grains are nice and rounded so your cories should be fine on it.
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post #17 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-10-2020, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
I see that, to you, hardness is a primary factor. But, I have yet to see that echoed in materials I have read online ( let alone as it relates to BDBS being used on aquarium with corydoras). Can you direct me to a resource I can read that explains how hardness is a more important criteria than shape ( roundness or angularity?).



Another source: This expert does not give a hierarchical listing of considerations when choosing an abrasive material. He includes shape in his analysis of the 4 criteria of abrasives. Stating that:


"Shape: Shape can be from spherical to angular. Spherical (round) abrasives work by peening the surface, while angular abrasives cut into the surface, displacing some of the surface material, leaving pits, described as profile. Profile is measured as the difference from the bottom of the pits to the top of the displaced material."


http://www.mrsandmaninc.com/techinfo...eSelection.pdf

PS I may be drawing primary conclusions from this, yes. I am not an engineer, but I can do research, give me some materials that describe/substantiate how hardness is a much more important criteria to consider when determining how an abrasive will work on/against various surfaces.
Perhaps the example from your own quote will help illustrate what I am referring to.

Quote:
2. Hardness: based on Mohs scale of 1-10. 1 being talc, 10 being diamond. Glass is +- 6 on the Mohs scale. Hardness determines cutting ability. Example: You could not cut
a steel pipe with a plastic saw.
Abrasive must be harder than the surface to be abraded or removed.

In this example, should I care how sharp the plastic saw is?

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post #18 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-10-2020, 09:14 PM
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The difference in both your rooting with bdbs is interesting. I've pulled some plants and they have extensive rooting. I have a medium size, can't remember the number, so that must be the difference between your tanks.
I've noticed it feels very sharp compared to sand if it gets under my fingernails, but I haven't noticed any problems with my bottom feeders.
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post #19 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-10-2020, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Bunsen Honeydew View Post
Perhaps the example from your own quote will help illustrate what I am referring to.




In this example, should I care how sharp the plastic saw is?
Your cryptic answers mean what exactly? Perhaps you might be clear and explain. Perhaps making this a teaching moment to the layman instead of trying to just say "I am the expert on this topic" and do not have to explain. I am very much all for science and experts, but when they talk over the layman's head and act condescendingly when questioned you only further perpetuate the notion that science is not for the masses.

Edit: On second thought-- do not explain here. Send to me direct message. Im sure the OP has no no interest ( or anyone else) in what you and I are going back in forth with. I hope that the OP will look to experts in ichthyology as more pertinent in the matter than a materials chemist. You have your area of expertise-- stay in your lane.


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post #20 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-10-2020, 09:39 PM
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I also really like Caribsea Peace River. I just use it as a cap, but it's really nice to plant into, has a natural color, and is polished and not sharp. I have also used Gemstone Creek from the same line and it's very nice looking but not as easy to plant into and probably would be tough on plant roots as it's a larger gravel. It's polished too, so I bet it would be fine for cories. I wouldn't try Gemstone Creek as a stand alone substrate, but the two match.
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post #21 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-10-2020, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by novato View Post
The difference in both your rooting with bdbs is interesting. I've pulled some plants and they have extensive rooting. I have a medium size, can't remember the number, so that must be the difference between your tanks.
I was using medium grit as well. I suppose the level of root growth is kind of subjective-- compared to aquasoil it was a lot lower but I haven't used any other sands I can compare it to. I've also seen lots of people growing plants beautifully in BDBS so take what I say with a grain of salt!


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post #22 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 12:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
Your cryptic answers mean what exactly? Perhaps you might be clear and explain. Perhaps making this a teaching moment to the layman instead of trying to just say "I am the expert on this topic" and do not have to explain. I am very much all for science and experts, but when they talk over the layman's head and act condescendingly when questioned you only further perpetuate the notion that science is not for the masses.

Edit: On second thought-- do not explain here. Send to me direct message. Im sure the OP has no no interest ( or anyone else) in what you and I are going back in forth with. I hope that the OP will look to experts in ichthyology as more pertinent in the matter than a materials chemist. You have your area of expertise-- stay in your lane.
I don't get this narrative of me being condescending because I have a different opinion based on my own experience, and trying to make a point about a material that has some misconceptions about it.

If you'd like to talk more about abrasives, feel free to reach out via PM.

I don't really understand where this went off the rails, but my apologies for sidetracking the thread OP.

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post #23 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 10:24 AM
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After reading this thread, I guess I consider myself very lucky, My Cory's love rooting around my BDBS . I have 6 in a 20L and they have been rummaging around in there for a couple pf years with no ill effects. Very Interesting read....

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post #24 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 10:45 AM
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I have personally used BDBS in the past and honestly I didn't care for it. I can't comment on the issue with the fish as I only had tetras in the tank. It didn't really honestly seem to harsh though. It was soft enough. I won't ever use it again though.

Personally, I use Caribsea sunset gold sand. This is the route I will always go for my tanks personally as long as I can still buy the product. Beautiful natural colors and all my plants are doing great in it. The price I understand is not for everyone though. They are normally 30+ dollars for one bag at Petsmart. Ridiculous. I found the same product on amazon for around 16 dollars a bag at the time. I needed 4 bags for my 33 long, but still, at only 16 bucks a bag, it wasn't too bad cost-wise.
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post #25 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 07:55 PM
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My cories have been on BDBS for years, with good, healthy barbels. They root around in it and have had multiple spawning events. I don't bother collecting the eggs as they hide them in the dense undulata crypt forest in the corner of the tank, but some fry have made it to adulthood on their own.

Of course, YMMV.


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post #26 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 07:56 PM Thread Starter
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My 20g has it as well and the cories are fine. But my 125, every one ends up losing them. So weird. Parameters are all good.

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post #27 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-11-2020, 08:34 PM
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I was under the impression barbel loss was more linked to infection than the substrate itself? Don't have a source for that unfortunately as it's a memory of something I've read in previous threads, but I thought the consensus was that a dirty substrate was more harmful than one that is sharp, or water conditions that in other ways are not ideal for the cories?

I've always used CaribSea sunset gold and noticed barbel loss issues with my cories - it turned out the temperature was too high for them so they weren't thriving overall, and I assume that's the cause there since my loaches in the same tank have had absolutely no issues.
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post #28 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-12-2020, 02:13 AM
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I'm pretty sure BDBS and PFS (what the heck is "regular sand") are both harder than corydoras so what difference does it make if one is harder than the other? I hear about BDBS being an issue with corydoras so why not khuli loaches, bristlenose plecos or dozen of other species. Why is it the whiskers? wouldn't it cut their bellies if it's an issue? Why doesn't it bother ottos, are they that tough?
I understand anecdotal evidence but how can loads of hobbyist raise these fish for years on this medium if it's an issue? I understand that successfully keeping corydoras on BDBS is not proof that it's safe, but having issues when it's in your tank is no proof that it's not.
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post #29 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-12-2020, 02:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubla View Post
I'm pretty sure BDBS and PFS (what the heck is "regular sand") are both harder than corydoras so what difference does it make if one is harder than the other? I hear about BDBS being an issue with corydoras so why not khuli loaches, bristlenose plecos or dozen of other species. Why is it the whiskers? wouldn't it cut their bellies if it's an issue? Why doesn't it bother ottos, are they that tough?

I understand anecdotal evidence but how can loads of hobbyist raise these fish for years on this medium if it's an issue? I understand that successfully keeping corydoras on BDBS is not proof that it's safe, but having issues when it's in your tank is no proof that it's not.
The issue was the misconception that blasting sand is going to be more problematic, or even what most would consider sharp under normal circumstances.

The attention was on whiskers, because that was what the OP was experiencing.

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post #30 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-12-2020, 02:54 AM
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There is no misconception about BDBS. Those of you who havent experienced any issues with this medium-- excellent.
Other people have. Just because you haven't doesn't nullify all the incidences of those who have.
The consensus on this forum is that it poses no issues.
Go outside this forum onto fish forums, ask experts in bottom-dwellers (not just corydoras, actually) what they recommend. It will not be BDBS.

The problem is whiskers in this case, yes. The issues of bacterial growth/fungus are secondary to the sharp materials rubbing on whiskers and bottoms of fish. Tissues and whiskers get eroded, secondary bacterial infections get a hold where if the proper medium ( a substrate with rounded, as opposed the angular edges) was used the bacteria would not be able to proliferate.

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubla View Post
I'm pretty sure BDBS and PFS (what the heck is "regular sand") are both harder than corydoras so what difference does it make if one is harder than the other? I hear about BDBS being an issue with corydoras so why not khuli loaches, bristlenose plecos or dozen of other species. Why is it the whiskers? wouldn't it cut their bellies if it's an issue? Why doesn't it bother ottos, are they that tough?
I understand anecdotal evidence but how can loads of hobbyist raise these fish for years on this medium if it's an issue? I understand that successfully keeping corydoras on BDBS is not proof that it's safe, but having issues when it's in your tank is no proof that it's not.
Regular sand is sand with rounded edges- not angular. If you look at the care of bottom-dwellers on reputable sites it is universal to put these fish on substrate that is composed of sand particles that are rounded.

Take the Kuhli loach, since it was brought up. On Simply Fish it states that: "


"Use a soft, sandy substrate since this species likes to dig and tends to spend some of its time completely buried. When coarser gravel is used it may become stressed or damage itself, and feeding behaviour can be inhibited."

And:

"Depending on locality the substrate may be composed of peat, mud or sand with the fish typically abundant in piles of leaf litter."
https://www.seriouslyfish.com/species/pangio-semicincta/


This is one example.
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