Eliminating BBA tank wide - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
 22Likes
Closed Thread
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #31 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 08:52 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
DaveKS's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: 67212
Posts: 2,268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jah410 View Post
@DaveKS

I ordered the mingdak dimmer.


Some questions about ramping light to minimize algae and maximize plant growth.

1. Why do you never use 100% intensity? Also, should I use 100% intensity if I'm trying to maximize coloration of my rotala and AR Mini (more so the former)?

2. I'd like to aim for about 10 hour lighting periods. Should I just break that into 3rds and ramp up, hold steady and ramp down with relatively even portions?

3. When would you turn co2 on in this cycle? Should it span the whole lighting period or just when above a certain threshold?
Co2 I would just start 1hr before light starts ramping up and shut off 1hr before light goes completely off and fine tune from there. But yes CO2 consumption will be less in the dimmer light periods.

As far as intensity, I’ve optimized my light for my tank and viewing needs. It’s also a Nicrew, less powerful than yours. It’s on a little 7gal bowfront, which is basically same footprint as a 5gal just with a bowed out front glass, no co2. For my plants, rotala rotundifolia green and red root floaters, 4hr midday section at about 60-70% with 4hr ramp up/down gives me a 12hr photoperiod. Plants couldn’t care less if I gave them [email protected]% or [email protected]%. It’s all about balancing light, nutrients and carbon availability to your tanks needs and uptake. What I or anyone else does are just grey area guidelines, you have to zero in and fine tune all those factors to your tank(plant types, plant mass, livestock).

You’ll do that by checking co2 drop and figuring concentration, monitoring nitrates and phosphate across week, knowing what your dosing and hitting your iron target, knowing signs of say K or Mg deficiency or sometimes signs of nutrient toxicity.

I’ve pretty much optimized mine so plants and their water cleaning function provide a optimized environment for my betta and neon/ember tetra. Plants grow so fast, even without co2, I have to prune and thin them out about every 7-10 days or they would take over whole tank. Red root floaters get all co2 they need from air, rotala actually has very minimal requirements for co2 and dosing so I dose at about 1/3 strength with thrive added to distilled water and use that to top off for evaporation throughout week. Feed my fish and then top off water to feed my plants, almost every day.

Plants use waste from feeding along with ferts to grow new tissue. Then when I prune and thin out plants I’m actually removing nitrates, phosphate etc from tank that are embedded in those plants tissue. I actually change very little water, 10% at most.

I’ve hit a equilibrium where I very seldom test anything. Just prune out plants, lightly dose/feed and change a very small amount of water and just add a few oak or almond leaves about every 2mo. But that’s my tank and my choice to grow plants in support of the environment I provide fish. That doesn’t sound like where your going with your tank.
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.
DaveKS is online now  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 08:53 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: PA
Posts: 1,859
I don’t think that glut kills the periphyton. My understanding of the periphyton is that it is an extremely rugged matrix of multiple organisms and is very difficult to kill. If anyone has evidence to the contrary, I would be very interested in it, as I had been looking for a good way to subdue the periphyton last year. As many of you know, it serves as one of the major feeding and anchoring bases for algae.

As far as anecdotal evidence that I can offer, it only relates to the single-dose approach I mentioned above. I see no evidence that the periphyton is harmed at all by up to 2ml Excel per gallon, one-time dosing. I have a well-nurtured and balanced ramshorn population. If this single, high dose Excel treatment were to kill the periphyton, then my snails would have had a severe reduction in their food source, yet there are no dead snails after these infrequent treatments.

Regarding the possibility that regular, daily recommended dosing levels kill the periphyton, I can offer no experience there. Although I did use Excel for 10+ years in a low-tech setup, I didn’t try making any observation regarding this. I suppose that it’s possible that glut might disrupt the formative aspects of the periphyton, but it is only speculation on my part.
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.
Deanna is offline  
post #33 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 09:36 PM
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,616
My understanding was that, like the term "biofilm," periphyton refers to a rather complex and sometimes varied group of microorganisms. Algae, microbes, bacteria, cyanobacteria, would pretty much all be part of its makeup, no? It would stand to reason that different ecosystems would have different organisms that make it up but I'd expect Excel to kill or at least diminish most of those. If I'm off on my understanding of what composes periphyton, please help me clear that up, because these blanket terms that might mean one thing in an Ecology 101 class and another in an aquarium!

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
Blue Ridge Reef is offline  
 
post #34 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 09:46 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: PA
Posts: 1,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
My understanding was that, like the term "biofilm," periphyton refers to a rather complex and sometimes varied group of microorganisms. Algae, microbes, bacteria, cyanobacteria, would pretty much all be part of its makeup, no? It would stand to reason that different ecosystems would have different organisms that make it up but I'd expect Excel to kill or at least diminish most of those. If I'm off on my understanding of what composes periphyton, please help me clear that up, because these blanket terms that might mean one thing in an Ecology 101 class and another in an aquarium!
Take a look at this posting by @jeffkrol (the entire thread is a good read and reminds me that I have to update it with what I found from the UV-C test)
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.
Deanna is offline  
post #35 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 09:48 PM
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 2,616
Thanks, Deanna. Please link the thread, I started going through his post history but... that's a lot of digging to do!
Tiger15 likes this.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
Blue Ridge Reef is offline  
post #36 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 10:07 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Tiger15's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunsen Honeydew View Post
Not to pick knits, but as someone that has had to design and present these studies, it doesn't say that it starts to harm grass shrimp at 41 ppm, it kills half of the population at that concentration. I think that there is a significant difference between killing half a population and harming an organism.

As far as my own experience, I have dosed approximately 1 mL/gallon for over 2 weeks without losing amanos, but that system probably dissipated the glut faster than normal (UV sterilizer, continuous water change).
LC50 is 50% lethal concentration. NOEC is no observed effect concentration. What you want is NOEC which is always less than LC. For Bluegill, the difference is 10 versus 11.2 ppm. For grass shrimp, NOEC is not available but it’s reasonable to assume 50% factor of safety or 20 ppm is the NOEC, still a large number hard to exceed in practice.

If you have culled shrimp, you can test it out in a separate tank whether Seachem recommended dosage will harm shrimp. I take Seachem’s word and published toxicology test results in good faith.

1 ml per gal is 4 ppm, twice the initial dosage or 10x daily recommended by Seachem. You just proved that your shrimp can tolerate very high dosage that most shrimp keepers are afraid to try.
Tiger15 is offline  
post #37 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 11:13 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
Bunsen Honeydew's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Lindenhurst, IL
Posts: 666
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger15 View Post
LC50 is 50% lethal concentration. NOEC is no observed effect concentration. What you want is NOEC which is always less than LC. For Bluegill, the difference is 10 versus 11.2 ppm. For grass shrimp, NOEC is not available but itís reasonable to assume 50% factor of safety or 20 ppm is the NOEC, still a large number hard to exceed in practice.

If you have culled shrimp, you can test it out in a separate tank whether Seachem recommended dosage will harm shrimp. I take Seachemís word and published toxicology test results in good faith.

1 ml per gal is 4 ppm, twice the initial dosage or 10x daily recommended by Seachem. You just proved that your shrimp can tolerate very high dosage that most shrimp keepers are afraid to try.
I understand the difference in the terms. I am not certain if one can make the extrapolation between LC50 and NOEC. I also don't know much about grass shrimp, especially if they should be taken as a representative case for shrimp in aquariums. Representative species are usually selected in the context of release into the environment.

The observation I related doesn't prove anything, it is simply one anecdote. And it certainly doesn't invalidate all of the other observations provided by others.

This has nothing to do with trusting or distrusting Seachem's data. I don't think that they would knowingly falsify toxicity data because doing so has harsh consequences. It just simply isn't the right data to fully make the assertion that Excel is always safe for all shrimp at recommended dosing.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

ďScience, my lad, is made up of mistakes, but they are mistakes which it is useful to make, because they lead little by little to the truth.Ē -Jules Verne
Bunsen Honeydew is offline  
post #38 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:10 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: PA
Posts: 1,859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
Thanks, Deanna. Please link the thread, I started going through his post history but... that's a lot of digging to do!
Sorry, I thought I did do that. Haste makes waste! Here it is:

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...l#post11281193
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.
Deanna is offline  
post #39 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 04:53 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: WI
Posts: 11,841
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
Thanks, Deanna. Please link the thread, I started going through his post history but... that's a lot of digging to do!
Yea, kind of embarrasing..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger15 View Post
LC50 is 50% lethal concentration. NOEC is no observed effect concentration. What you want is NOEC which is always less than LC. For Bluegill, the difference is 10 versus 11.2 ppm. For grass shrimp, NOEC is not available but itís reasonable to assume 50% factor of safety or 20 ppm is the NOEC, still a large number hard to exceed in practice.

If you have culled shrimp, you can test it out in a separate tank whether Seachem recommended dosage will harm shrimp. I take Seachemís word and published toxicology test results in good faith.

1 ml per gal is 4 ppm, twice the initial dosage or 10x daily recommended by Seachem. You just proved that your shrimp can tolerate very high dosage that most shrimp keepers are afraid to try.

OK decided to do some cyphering (feel free to correct it)
This is going to be a bit on the rough side and will be using a large-ish dose of Met15 as an example..
First off I found 2 weights.. 1.06g/ml or specific gravity of 1.004 (MSDS)
Choose sp.
1.004g @ 2.6% (assume v:v)
So Met15 contains 26.1mg/ml

Using a 40gal and a rate of addition of 1ml/gal


1044mg/40ml diluted by about 136 liters roughly..
7.67mg/L or 7.67ppm..


Quote:
Toxicity:
Glutaraldehyde: LC50 fathead minnow 10.8 mg/L/96 hr; EC50 daphnia magna 0.69 mg/L/48 hr; EbC50
green algae 2.64 mg/L/72 hr.
Persistence and degradability: Glutaraldehyde is readily biodegradable
mysid shrimp toxicity is here:
https://www3.epa.gov/pesticides/chem...Jun-94_044.pdf

Thing is, as stated numerous times, that glut has a very short life in a tank.
But that said, plenty of unintended consequences are possible.




Quote:
EbC50
green algae 2.64 mg/L/72 hr.

BTW; That's 50% decrease in biomass..

Over the years I only have 2 fish deaths attributed directly to that sort of concentration.
1 a tetra w/ horrible columnaris and on the same day a Golden algea eater who I "believe" was in a direct glut dump..
Because of that I have now used a different system of adding it after dilution (water top off) AND not doing it after lights out..
Also do every other day as to not have the concentration, as unlikely as it already is due to degradation, stay level or high..
Blue Ridge Reef likes this.

Suspended for 30 days for being awful to other forum members
jeffkrol is online now  
post #40 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 08:27 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Tiger15's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post
Yea, kind of embarrasing..

OK decided to do some cyphering (feel free to correct it)
Using a 40gal and a rate of addition of 1ml/gal

1044mg/40ml diluted by about 136 liters roughly..
7.67mg/L or 7.67ppm..

Thing is, as stated numerous times, that glut has a very short life in a tank.
But that said, plenty of unintended consequences are possible.
Your calculation is almost correct
1 ml / gal of 1.5% Glut Excel = 4 ppm
1 ml / gal of 2.6% Glut Metricide = 4*2.6/1.5 = 6.9 ppm by proportionality calculation.

The half life of Glut in aqueous solution is 10 hours, so hardly any residual is left after 24 hour and no accumulative effect if dose daily.

Using 1 ml per gal of either Excel or Metricide is higher than Seachem recommended initial dosage after WC. It’s more than enough to suppress algae, but still substantially below LD50 for grass shrimp and bluegill, 41 and 10 ppm respectively.

Here is my derivation of Excel recommended dosage expressed in ppm

1 gal = 3785.41 ml
1.5% Glut = 1.5*1000000/100 = 15,000 ppm
Initial after WC: 5ml of 1.5% Glut in 10 gal = 15000 * 5 / (10*3785.41) = 2 ppm
Normal daily: 5ml of 1.5% Glut in 50 gal = 15000 * 5 / (50*3785.41) = 0.4 ppm
Tiger15 is offline  
post #41 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 01:50 PM
Obsessed? Maybe
 
somewhatshocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (501/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Middle America
Posts: 14,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
Pretty sure he was giving an extreme example of how loathe he would be to use it in a shrimp tank at all.
Yep. But some folks like to go bananas with semantics despite knowing fully well what a person means. All for the sake of being contrary.

Someone brought me up so I merely chimed in with generalities about why I'm cautious with shrimp.

.....


When I say film (biofilm), I mean the slime-y coat that forms on every surface in a tank. Not one organism or group of organisms. It's not just microorganisms but everything that summarily gets trapped in the film - from food bits to general detritus upon which shrimp feed. The poop n stuff, to be more exact and scientific.

Excel can/tends to burn off the film on plant & other surfaces. (That allows some plants to more easily absorb things)

It may not be noticeable at first but if you've got shrimplets in a tank, it can wreak havoc in many circumstances. Even a single dose. Especially if you have primitive species or mosses, crypts, vals, the sort of plants that are typically kept in shrimp tanks. Excel can/will melt them when it hits them. So hidey holes and primary food sources for the smallest shrimp are gutted in one fell swoop. Depending upon the tank and circumstances, you could wipe out an entire generation of shrimp or cause no harm at all. Nothing is a guarantee and there are too many variables in play from tank to tank to make any claim about an algaecide's impacts with absolute certainty. Particularly when it comes to toxicity, survival rates, problems, successes, et al.

All of these issues are searchable here and on other forums. Relatively common knowledge among shrimpkeepers.

Note: I would not compare glass shrimp to other, more complex species. Some popular shrimp kept in the hobby these days tend to die over something as trivial as a couple degrees in water temperature. Temporary stresses can lead to dropped egg clutches, interrupted or failed molts, all kinds of stuff. It's why we're careful with the foods we feed, fertilization regimens, water flow, types of filtration. I suspect someone serious about keeping shrimp isn't going to consider using Excel, so much of this is moot.
Blue Ridge Reef and Discusluv like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

somewhatshocked is offline  
post #42 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:31 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Tiger15's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 390
Quote:
Originally Posted by somewhatshocked View Post
Seachem claim shrimp are not impacted yet hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.
.
I just read this thread and contrary to your belief that there is no consensus among shrimp keepers that Excel used as directed can harm shrimp.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...vs-shrimp.html
Tiger15 is offline  
post #43 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:47 PM
Obsessed? Maybe
 
somewhatshocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (501/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Middle America
Posts: 14,851
If you want to be contrary for the sake of being contrary, that's fine. Say so and move on. But don't ascribe words to people that they did not use.

Re-read what I have written. It's beyond clear what I meant. Never once said there is "consensus" about anything. It's more than clear to the average forum reader.

In fact, here's what I wrote in that very link you just shared - way back in February 2012:

Quote:
I think the moral of the story is this: If you have any concerns about Excel and shrimp? Don't use it. Because you can easily over do it without meaning to.
The same holds true today.

Additionally, while there is no consensus - because there's very little consensus about anything in this hobby - that doesn't mean hundreds or thousands of shrimpkeepers haven't had terrible experiences with Excel. Don't cherry pick. Especially when you don't have experience with sensitive shrimp species.

Stop trying to stir the pot or start drama. No one here has time or desire for that. And it's an a-hole move to derail the OP's original concerns. I've read through your other posts and see you do this sort of thing with regularity. Stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger15 View Post
I just read this thread and contrary to your belief that there is no consensus among shrimp keepers that Excel used as directed can harm shrimp.

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...vs-shrimp.html
P.S. Not trying to be a jerk but come on. No need to drag literally every discussion on this forum into the gutter.
Blue Ridge Reef and Discusluv like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Last edited by somewhatshocked; 06-26-2020 at 03:09 PM. Reason: p.s.
somewhatshocked is offline  
post #44 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 03:33 PM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
Tiger15's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Posts: 390
Iím not contradicting you for the sake of argument. When you claimed that ď hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.Ē it sounds like there is consensus that using excel is necessary problematic. I did a quick search on this forum and the first thread came up reveals that there are as many who found no problem as problematic, so there is no consensus even though you havenít used the word.
Tiger15 is offline  
post #45 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 04:22 PM
Obsessed? Maybe
 
somewhatshocked's Avatar
 
PTrader: (501/100%)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Middle America
Posts: 14,851
Good. You admitted I didn't use the term. Thank you for that.

But I also neither implied it nor tried to start nonsense with you or others. That doesn't fly here. There is widespread knowledge within the shrimping community that it's not worth the risk involved. You can take it or leave it, up to you. That's how life works, as well. Take it or leave it.

To other members: When you see this particular kind of behavior - starting drama where there should be none - in the future, please report it or reach out to me directly. There is never a reason to be a jackass to other members.

Look to other people like @jeffkrol, who has spent years & years teaching newcomers about lighting in ways that are supremely helpful. And members from long ago like @sewingalot, who helped make Mattenfilters a popular thing in the US among shrimpkeepers a couple decades ago. Follow their lead. They don't attempt to stir the pot when someone contradicts them. Don't be contrary & start crap with other members because it serves no point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger15 View Post
Iím not contradicting you for the sake of argument. When you claimed that ď hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.Ē it sounds like there is consensus that using excel is necessary problematic. I did a quick search on this forum and the first thread came up reveals that there are as many who found no problem as problematic, so there is no consensus even though you havenít used the word.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
|
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

somewhatshocked is offline  
Closed Thread

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome