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post #16 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 10:43 PM
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To each their own. But...

I wouldn't even use 1ml of metricide per 50gal with shrimp. I've had it kill pretty much every kind of invertebrate kept in the planted tank hobby. Amano included. But Neos and Crystals are especially sensitive to it.

Also breaks down surface film that shrimp feed on - their primary diet. If used regularly, the tank will 100% not be an ideal environment for shrimp or any other detritus-feeding critter. They may survive, sure. But if you want to try to create the best environment you can for shrimp? Metricide/Excel is going to be a detriment.

Mileage varies, of course, but even with dilution? It's a risk I do not take.

P.S. Yes, this an alarmist take. Meant to highlight a common worst case scenario that shrimpkeepers tend to experience on a fairly regular basis.
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post #17 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 10:53 PM
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Oh, okay.
Well, I know that @somewhatshocked who has decades of experience with sensitive shrimp like PRL's does not recommend daily Excel dosing. I am almost certain he would say that this amount of Excel should never be given with sensitive shrimp.
I dont know now--- maybe I misunderstood and just thought it was with sensitive shrimp- not all shrimp.

But, I do not use any Excel in any of my tanks with shrimp-- even neo's.

That is why I was so surprised that you said it was safe to do this 1ml/per gallon in shrimp tanks.
Yes, IME, daily (relentless) dosing of Excel much above Seachem-recommended levels is hard on many things in a tank so, when I did use it for plant growth in a low-tech setup, I found that I was safer below the recommended levels and that it did improve my plants' ability to withstand more light than is generally advisable for low-tech setups, but this sensitivity is a function of several parameters in a tank.

I believe that the single-only dose, as an algaecide, at high levels, is the reason that we don't see the typical problems that might happen with the constant pounding day-after-day of Excel in recommended doses for plants. Excel/glut doesn't stay around more than about 8 hours and has less potential for problems when pH is below 7. A further cushion for livestock can be provided by increasing gas exchange, since glut is a reducing agent, but I have yet to see any breathing stress up to about 3ml / gal.
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post #18 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-24-2020, 10:57 PM
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To each their own. But...

I wouldn't even use 1ml of metricide per 50gal with shrimp. I've had it kill pretty much every kind of invertebrate kept in the planted tank hobby. Amano included. But Neos and Crystals are especially sensitive to it.

Also breaks down surface film that shrimp feed on - their primary diet. If used regularly, the tank will 100% not be an ideal environment for shrimp or any other detritus-feeding critter. They may survive, sure. But if you want to try to create the best environment you can for shrimp? Metricide/Excel is going to be a detriment.

Mileage varies, of course, but even with dilution? It's a risk I do not take.

P.S. Yes, this an alarmist take. Meant to highlight a common worst case scenario that shrimpkeepers tend to experience on a fairly regular basis.
Thanks for answering this---

It seems I did understand you perfectly


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post #19 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 01:58 AM
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In a perfect world, yes, it's going to dissipate in a matter of hours. But in an enclosed environment, metricide doesn't just disappear as quickly or as regularly as you'd think. And harmful, potentially deadly issues pop up down the line in terms of invertebrates. Issues often manifest in shrimp days or weeks later - everything from neuro development/impairment to inabilities to molt or grow proper exoskeletons.

Some say it can be used safely with invertebrates. That may be the case in some circumstances. I say, after nearly ~20 years with the stuff, that it's best used in tanks that don't contain inverts.
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post #20 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 03:09 AM
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Is there a dimmer/timer that you would recommend? I've been looking at smart dimmers that you can program on an app, but it's hard to tell if any can be programmed to change intensity throughout the day.
I've been using this on my small shrimp tank. Works really well. You can program 8 (from memory) changes in intensity throughout the daily cycle.
https://www.lazada.sg/products/yothg...492821749.html

I bought shipped direct from China, but sure you can get locally / via internet wherever you are.

Cheap, simple and works really well. Just check that connectors are the correct size for your light and power supply of course!
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post #21 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 05:23 AM
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I've been using this on my small shrimp tank. Works really well. You can program 8 (from memory) changes in intensity throughout the daily cycle.
https://www.lazada.sg/products/yothg...492821749.html

I bought shipped direct from China, but sure you can get locally / via internet wherever you are.

Cheap, simple and works really well. Just check that connectors are the correct size for your light and power supply of course!
Yes, that looks just about like Nicrew Pro just with a different logo. The little mingdak timers on amazon are essentially same thing, just a different case design. Nicrew seems just a slight bit sturdier build but nothing substantially noticeable.
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post #22 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 06:35 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by en7jos View Post
I've been using this on my small shrimp tank. Works really well. You can program 8 (from memory) changes in intensity throughout the daily cycle.
https://www.lazada.sg/products/yothg...492821749.html

I bought shipped direct from China, but sure you can get locally / via internet wherever you are.

Cheap, simple and works really well. Just check that connectors are the correct size for your light and power supply of course!
Yes, that looks just about like Nicrew Pro just with a different logo. The little mingdak timers on amazon are essentially same thing, just a different case design. Nicrew seems just a slight bit sturdier build but nothing substantially noticeable.
@DaveKS

I ordered the mingdak dimmer.


Some questions about ramping light to minimize algae and maximize plant growth.

1. Why do you never use 100% intensity? Also, should I use 100% intensity if I'm trying to maximize coloration of my rotala and AR Mini (more so the former)?

2. I'd like to aim for about 10 hour lighting periods. Should I just break that into 3rds and ramp up, hold steady and ramp down with relatively even portions?

3. When would you turn co2 on in this cycle? Should it span the whole lighting period or just when above a certain threshold?
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post #23 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 12:35 PM
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Also breaks down surface film that shrimp feed on - their primary diet.
Are you referring to the periphyton?
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post #24 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by somewhatshocked View Post
To each their own. But...

I wouldn't even use 1ml of metricide per 50gal with shrimp. I've had it kill pretty much every kind of invertebrate kept in the planted tank hobby. Amano included. But Neos and Crystals are especially sensitive to it.
P.S. Yes, this an alarmist take. Meant to highlight a common worst case scenario that shrimpkeepers tend to experience on a fairly regular basis.
I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.

According to Seachem, there is no harm to fish and shrimp following its directions: “On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 US gallons). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons) daily or every other day.” 5 ml per 10 gal is equivalent to 2 ppm Glut.

I have compiled toxicity tests of Glut from multiple sources as follows. Accordingly, grass shrimp will be harmed at 41 ppm, sunfish 10 ppm, algae 1 to 1.8 ppm, and daphnia 0.35 ppm. Therefore, 2 ppm as recommended by Seachem is minimal to suppress algae, and double to triple that amount won’t harm fish and shrimp.

Toxicity of glutaraldehyde
96h acute Bluegill sunfish LC50 = 11.2 mg/L
Bluegill sunfish NOEC = 10 mg/L
48h acute Oyster larvae LC50 = 2.1 mg/L
96h acute Green crabs LC50 = 465 mg/L
96h acute Grass shrimp LC50 = 41 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 0.35 mg/L
Daphnia magna NOEC = 0.32 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Selenastrum capricornutum ILm = 3.9 mg/L
Algal inhibition Selenastrum subcapitata IC50=1 to 1.8 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Scenedesmus subspicatus EC50 = 0.9 mg/L
Bacterial inhibition Sewage microbes IC50 = 25-34 mg/L
96h O. mykiss (Trout hatch rate) IC50 = 1.82 mg/L
96h C. dubia (Daphnia reproduction) IC50 = 4.7 mg/L

*EC=Effective concentration; IC=Inhibition concentration; LC=Lethal concentration;
NOEC=No observed effect concentration

I don’t do daily dosage, but dose 5 ml per 10 gal or 2 ppm after weekly 75% water change to suppress algae. The half life of Glut is 10 hours, so by the end of the day there is hardly any residual left. My fish has been subject to as much as 8 ppm short term bath as I dosed the full 5 ml amount before filling up the tank.
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post #25 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 05:05 PM
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I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.

According to Seachem, there is no harm to fish and shrimp following its directions: “On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 US gallons). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons) daily or every other day.” 5 ml per 10 gal is equivalent to 2 ppm Glut.

I have compiled toxicity tests of Glut from multiple sources as follows. Accordingly, grass shrimp will be harmed at 41 ppm, sunfish 10 ppm, algae 1 to 1.8 ppm, and daphnia 0.35 ppm. Therefore, 2 ppm as recommended by Seachem is minimal to suppress algae, and double to triple that amount won’t harm fish and shrimp.

Toxicity of glutaraldehyde
96h acute Bluegill sunfish LC50 = 11.2 mg/L
Bluegill sunfish NOEC = 10 mg/L
48h acute Oyster larvae LC50 = 2.1 mg/L
96h acute Green crabs LC50 = 465 mg/L
96h acute Grass shrimp LC50 = 41 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 0.35 mg/L
Daphnia magna NOEC = 0.32 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Selenastrum capricornutum ILm = 3.9 mg/L
Algal inhibition Selenastrum subcapitata IC50=1 to 1.8 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Scenedesmus subspicatus EC50 = 0.9 mg/L
Bacterial inhibition Sewage microbes IC50 = 25-34 mg/L
96h O. mykiss (Trout hatch rate) IC50 = 1.82 mg/L
96h C. dubia (Daphnia reproduction) IC50 = 4.7 mg/L

*EC=Effective concentration; IC=Inhibition concentration; LC=Lethal concentration;
NOEC=No observed effect concentration

I don’t do daily dosage, but dose 5 ml per 10 gal or 2 ppm after weekly 75% water change to suppress algae. The half life of Glut is 10 hours, so by the end of the day there is hardly any residual left. My fish has been subject to as much as 8 ppm short term bath as I dosed the full 5 ml amount before filling up the tank.
Do you have shrimp?
Could you tell us what type/types of shrimp you have and describe what concentrations/frequency of Excel/of dosage you have used with your shrimp?


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post #26 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 05:18 PM
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I have a coralux controller on my DIY rapidled fixture

I too have been battling with BBA in the beginning however I feel like the battle is being won now. I realized I kept adjusting my CO2 too much throughout the day and since have kept it consistent. I put it at a level where the plants are pearling away, the drop checker is green, and the fish are not gasping.

The lights I have also adjusted to only have a 2 hour ramp up time in the beginning and then 4 hours of strong daylight. shortening the highest light has been helpful as well but still allows viewing throughout the day.

all new growth is BBA free and the one that was at the bottom and growing on the substrate is staying the same or dying due to h2o2 treatments.

PS. be careful with h2o2, it killed my riccia, micro pelia, and it has impacted my Helanthium 'Vesuvius'

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post #27 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 06:27 PM
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I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.
Pretty sure he was giving an extreme example of how loathe he would be to use it in a shrimp tank at all. After years of trial and error I also won't let it anywhere near my own shrimp tanks. I try to stay out of glut arguments, it simply is what it is. It has its place in this hobby for algae control and I've found nothing that kills BBA (or HA) more effectively. I have used gallons of the the stuff over the years and used to buy Excel by the 4 liter bottle. My biggest qualms with it have nothing to do with the product, really. My issues are that it's marketed by some companies as "liquid CO2" when it's decidedly not, and most hobbyists overdose it. Neither of these are remotely the fault of glutaraldehyde. I am of the belief that it and dwarf shrimp are not a good mix though. I could offer nothing but anecdotal evidence, but I've had enough firsthand anecdotal evidence over the last 10+ years keeping shrimp to have come to a strong conclusion. And that is that algae control is best done with kid gloves in a shrimp tank, in my opinion.
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post #28 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 07:43 PM
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Do you have shrimp?
Could you tell us what type/types of shrimp you have and describe what concentrations/frequency of Excel/of dosage you have used with your shrimp?
The tanks I dose Glut regularly have no shrimp, but sensitive invert Nerite snails which are not affected. I have Neo shrimp bowls too but I rarely dosed Glut because they have no bba, only green thread algae (spirogyra) Glut is ineffective against. According to Seachem narrative, shrimp are not affected at the dosage recommended. Surprisingly, toxicity tests show that grass shrimp are more tolerant of glut than bluegill sunfish, 41 versus 10 ppm LD50, respectively. Certainly, grass shrimp are not Neo, and Bluegill not tetra, so their tolerance of Glut vary. Shrimp are known to be much more sensitive to heavy metals (copper, zinc) than fish and human which are present in our plumbing system and explained why shrimp cannot be kept in some tap water.
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post #29 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 08:05 PM
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Seachem claim shrimp are not impacted yet hundreds of shrimpkeepers through the past couple decades on this forum and others have had countless problems.

I use the heck out of it in non-shrimp tanks. And in my outdoor containers. But have had far too many instances of deaths, reproduction issues, other problems - as have others (the search function is your friend) when it comes to shrimp. Wouldn't consider myself a beginner in any stretch of the imagination.

If you absolutely must use it in a shrimp tank, I suggest you be as careful as possible and focus on spot treatment when you can. Accompanied by water changes. Lots more surface agitation than usual, too, maybe with an air stone if you don't have return pipes you can reposition for a while.

Again - to each their own. If you want to use it? Use it. If you want to take precautions that shrimp nerds like me recommend to be on the safe side? Take them.

One other thing - the only snail I've ever killed with metricide/glut/Excel were Tylos. Nerites are far hardier than most give them credit for. This afternoon I had to rescue a Nerite from the wall behind its tank. Little bugger slimed its way down the stand, across several inches of carpet and 2-3 feet up the wall. There were eggs all over the outside/back of the tank. It's still chugging along in the tank like everything is fine.


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post #30 of 45 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 08:52 PM
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I am not convinced that the dosage, 1 ml per 50 gal, which is less than 0.1 ppm Glut, is sufficient to harm shrimp.

According to Seachem, there is no harm to fish and shrimp following its directions: “On initial use or after a major (> 40%) water change, use 1 capful (5 mL) for every 40 L (10 US gallons). Thereafter use 1 capful for every 200 L (50 US gallons) daily or every other day.” 5 ml per 10 gal is equivalent to 2 ppm Glut.

I have compiled toxicity tests of Glut from multiple sources as follows. Accordingly, grass shrimp will be harmed at 41 ppm, sunfish 10 ppm, algae 1 to 1.8 ppm, and daphnia 0.35 ppm. Therefore, 2 ppm as recommended by Seachem is minimal to suppress algae, and double to triple that amount won’t harm fish and shrimp.

Toxicity of glutaraldehyde
96h acute Bluegill sunfish LC50 = 11.2 mg/L
Bluegill sunfish NOEC = 10 mg/L
48h acute Oyster larvae LC50 = 2.1 mg/L
96h acute Green crabs LC50 = 465 mg/L
96h acute Grass shrimp LC50 = 41 mg/L
48h acute Daphnia magna LC50 = 0.35 mg/L
Daphnia magna NOEC = 0.32 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Selenastrum capricornutum ILm = 3.9 mg/L
Algal inhibition Selenastrum subcapitata IC50=1 to 1.8 mg/L
96h algal growth inhibition Scenedesmus subspicatus EC50 = 0.9 mg/L
Bacterial inhibition Sewage microbes IC50 = 25-34 mg/L
96h O. mykiss (Trout hatch rate) IC50 = 1.82 mg/L
96h C. dubia (Daphnia reproduction) IC50 = 4.7 mg/L

*EC=Effective concentration; IC=Inhibition concentration; LC=Lethal concentration;
NOEC=No observed effect concentration

I don’t do daily dosage, but dose 5 ml per 10 gal or 2 ppm after weekly 75% water change to suppress algae. The half life of Glut is 10 hours, so by the end of the day there is hardly any residual left. My fish has been subject to as much as 8 ppm short term bath as I dosed the full 5 ml amount before filling up the tank.

Not to pick knits, but as someone that has had to design and present these studies, it doesn't say that it starts to harm grass shrimp at 41 ppm, it kills half of the population at that concentration. I think that there is a significant difference between killing half a population and harming an organism.

As far as my own experience, I have dosed approximately 1 mL/gallon for over 2 weeks without losing amanos, but that system probably dissipated the glut faster than normal (UV sterilizer, continuous water change).
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Last edited by Bunsen Honeydew; 06-25-2020 at 08:55 PM. Reason: add
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