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My Plan For Stubborn Cynobacteria

3K views 28 replies 14 participants last post by  TINNGG 
#1 ·
I have a discus tank which results in...



Higher nitrates, higher Phosphate, and more nutrients. Currently I do 3X 50-60% WCs a week turning over a minimum of 150% per week.


My tap water parameters: 5-10ppm Nitrate and 1ppm Phosphate.

At the moment my tank is bare bottom. Lighting is T5 down 4-5 hours max.

And the only way I can see forward is going against the grain of Discus normality. Which means returning to substrate (to hold plants) pressurized Co2 and ferts to grow plants and as many fast growing plants I can find that will survive at discus temps.

Given the above factors is there anything else I should consider? After 3 months of this stubborn algae I'm at my wits end.

Please advise :|
 
#4 ·
Three 60% water changes, is actually about 95% of the water replaced in a week rather than 150% as you replace some of the new each change. However, if you are replacing 95% of the water and still getting high nitrates (how high is high?) something is going wrong somewhere... over stocking, over feeding, cycle issue etc.

Have you checked everything - in the tank itself not just your tap - hardness, ph, nitrates etc. gives you an idea of what's happening.

I don't think planting the tank is going to help unless you work out the root of the problem.

What have you tried so far to resolve the cyano?
 
#5 ·
Three 60% water changes, is actually about 95% of the water replaced in a week rather than 150% as you replace some of the new each change. However, if you are replacing 95% of the water and still getting high nitrates (how high is high?) something is going wrong somewhere... over stocking, over feeding, cycle issue etc.

Have you checked everything - in the tank itself not just your tap - hardness, ph, nitrates etc. gives you an idea of what's happening.

I don't think planting the tank is going to help unless you work out the root of the problem.

What have you tried so far to resolve the cyano?
I appreciate the reply and input here but the highlighted part makes no sense to me.

My tap water is 5ppm Nitrate and 1-5ppm Phos. (Phos fluctuates.) The plan is to eliminate excess Nitrate and Phos and reduce lighting to counter the cyno.
 
#7 ·
Get some floating plants. Will both cut light reaching tank and also clean water. You won’t need CO2 because they have access to all they want in air. About 1/3-1/2 tank covered in frogbit will work. Fish will also be happier with a little floating cover.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Can we get some more details, including:

What actual tank water parameters are?

How many T5 bulbs are you running? Trying to understand how much light is going into the tank

What are you feeding and how often?

How often do you clean the filters?

Really hard to help unless there are more details!

My Nitrates reach 10ppm every 3 days. Phosphate at about 5ppm. Ammonia and Nitrite are both 0ppm.
I feed FDAB and various flake/ My lights are led 2XT5. Specifically 62W combined. However I have purchased and brightness adjustable unit. The following pics are an example of the the interface and output. Not an actual setting I'm using as it hasn't been added to the tank yet.




And the resulting output






I clean the FX6 filter once every 2 months. I have an Oase 350 filter and one third of the canister is an internal pre filter. The oase is damn near pristine. I remove the internal pre filter and clean that every two weeks...



I've had cyanobacteria in 3 of my tanks. Aggressive removal by hand and use of the product chemiclean has helped cut it back a TON.
My 75g planted tank was covered in cyano bacteria. After spending 4 hours crunched over the rim removing every bit I could see and ding 2 rounds of chemiclean (dose-48 hours-wc) and currently there is only the tiniest bit..have hair algae now but that's my fault for adding an extra light I didn't need. Side note: if you have a lid clean the lid and rim of the tank the lid sits on-had a lot of cyanobacteria build up here.
Rachel O'leary on youtube started using some other product to deal with cyanobacteria but never did a follow up video to see if it was any help. Not tried it so cant comment on it.
Chemi clean isn't available here. I watched O'leary's cyno vid too. She does great content but I haven't seen a follow up either.

@tamsin I hate to disagree especially since you took the time to provide advice about my situation. That said, your view on what constitutes a percentage of water change is completely off and foreign especially to discus keepers who rely heavily on water changes. Some even do 90% daily... Which wouldn't be 90% by your calculations. I apologize in advance if it's just my comprehension which is at fault here.

Get some floating plants. Will both cut light reaching tank and also clean water. You won’t need CO2 because they have access to all they want in air. About 1/3-1/2 tank covered in frogbit will work. Fish will also be happier with a little floating cover.
Keeping discus means I need more surface tension to compensate for the lower amount of oxygen at higher temps. Now that I'll be adding CO2 I wont be able to reduce that level of surface tension and the floating plants will most likely get churned into mush seeing as they thrive in calmer conditions. I have looked into pothos (spelling?) but I'm not sure a jungle sprawling outside of the tank will go down well with the lady in my life lol
...

I appreciate all the info and feedback guys, I really do. My understanding of what sustains cyno is excess light, nutrients, phos and nitrate. As my discus have grown I believe the nutrients and nitrate have become more of a factor and like the rest of you, being a planted guy I believe a decent amount of plants to out compete the cyno is perhaps the best option. I purchased a tub of seachem Phosguard and will add that to the oase pre filter if the plants don't eliminate it. Blackouts have an adverse affect on it. I recently did a 5 day black out and it began to die off which is why I spent way too much on an adjustable output led unit to replace the T5s.
 
#9 ·
I've had cyanobacteria in 3 of my tanks. Aggressive removal by hand and use of the product chemiclean has helped cut it back a TON.
My 75g planted tank was covered in cyano bacteria. After spending 4 hours crunched over the rim removing every bit I could see and ding 2 rounds of chemiclean (dose-48 hours-wc) and currently there is only the tiniest bit..have hair algae now but that's my fault for adding an extra light I didn't need. Side note: if you have a lid clean the lid and rim of the tank the lid sits on-had a lot of cyanobacteria build up here.
Rachel O'leary on youtube started using some other product to deal with cyanobacteria but never did a follow up video to see if it was any help. Not tried it so cant comment on it.
 
#14 ·
Have you tried a UV sterilizer yet to combat the cyano? When I started my tank, I had a stubborn combo of cyano & greenwater, and despite trying erythromycin, blackouts, etc, nothing helped until I put in a Green Machine. That totally turned the corner for me.

Pothos or any terrestrial plant which will grow in water works wonders in sucking out nutrients. Other options that might be more palatable to the missus are syngoniums, purple wandering jew, sweet potato vines (there are a couple of ornamental varieties that come in chartreuse and a purple-black), golden jenny, etc. I've found the roots attract algae, but it doesn't spread to anything else. There are videos online where people float anthuriums or peace lilies in styrofoam rings after washing the dirt off the roots. Haven't yet tried this myself, but would like to give it a try with some colorful anthuriums.

Could you also perhaps put some fast growing stems or rooted plants like water sprite in pots? Or tall emergent plants in pots?
 
#15 ·
Have you tried a UV sterilizer yet to combat the cyano? When I started my tank, I had a stubborn combo of cyano & greenwater, and despite trying erythromycin, blackouts, etc, nothing helped until I put in a Green Machine. That totally turned the corner for me.
I didn't even consider the UV. I get it on the top of my bacopa colorata and nothing seems to rid it off. Perhaps if I turn my UV on after the next water change? It is a good thought!

I'll just need to remember to click it off after a day or so. If I remember correctly the UV messes with the chelated iron and can make the tank cloudy? I'll need to look this one up again...
 
#19 ·
You can put phosphate absorbing beads in a mesh bag in your canister filter. There are various brands. Just follow the instructions carefully. Nitrogen absorbers are also available. I'm surprised you are trying to run a discus setup without such things in place considering how sensitive to water conditions discus are.

Fast growing plants will certainly help as well but you should institute backup in your filter.

But as others have said look at your feeding regime. Fish are cold blooded so can be fed every other day rather than every day. So look to how much and how often you feed your fish in order to get at the root of the problem.

It is normal to want to care for our pets, but you can kill them with too much care. Pull back, realise less can be more.
 
#22 ·
You can put phosphate absorbing beads in a mesh bag in your canister filter. There are various brands. Just follow the instructions carefully. Nitrogen absorbers are also available. I'm surprised you are trying to run a discus setup without such things in place considering how sensitive to water conditions discus are.

Fast growing plants will certainly help as well but you should institute backup in your filter.

But as others have said look at your feeding regime. Fish are cold blooded so can be fed every other day rather than every day. So look to how much and how often you feed your fish in order to get at the root of the problem.

It is normal to want to care for our pets, but you can kill them with too much care. Pull back, realise less can be more.

I feed my discus twice a day which is on the lower scale for discus keepers. They live in higher temps, mine are at 28-30C and therefore the metabolic rate consumes energy faster. I've pulled away from raw meat/beefheart in favour of FDBW which is protein rich but less messy and less of a pollutant. I actually purchased seachem phosguard but the aim is still to balance and outcompete the cyno, naturally.


BTW what is the water flow like in the tank. Cyanobac should be swept away by even a moderate flow. It should disappear into your nice dark canister filter.

I have two canister filters. FX6, Oase 305 filters, and also a Hydor power head. The flow is as desired each part of the tank, even behind the big rock, has plants swaying gently.


Good point here by Muscleguy regarding water flow in the tank.
Cyanobacteria is anaerobic and usually thrives in low bottom areas of the tank where there is no water flow- i.e. areas which are low in, or almost devoid of oxygen.


I can't tell from your small full tank pic, Rolla, if or where there is any cyano, and from your later photo of what appears to be in the substrate area of the tank, all I see is what seems to be pieces of driftwood, a couple of which have small tufts of some greenery attached - is that correct ? I still do not see any cyano per se - please indicate where it can be located and seen


In any event, if there are no large, wide expanse, patches of cyano, here's what you can do at the time of a water change, with your filter(s) turned off, and the water level at a mid-point range of your tank level;
- At close range using a plastic syringe, or test kit pipette, spray the cyano with straight H202 ( regular household hydrogen peroxide), it should shortly form bubbles (oxygen) on the cyano - leave it this way for about 1/2 hour with filters off, then refill tank as usual. You'll see it working as the air bubbles remove themselves from the cyano & rise up into the water flow. The following morning, the sprayed areas of cyano should have disappeared.
A moderate amount of H202 used in this manner will not hurt your discus- but keep them away from getting too close when you spray to be safe.
Repeat this procedure in areas you haven't done first time around if need be.
Then improve your water flow in the bottom areas of the tank, with a strong flow from a spray bar, or an extended filter return nozzle which goes down to near the tank bottom, or even a small water circulation pump strategically placed to flow water over the tank bottom.
That should keep the cyano from returning. Having said all of this Rolla, I'm still not sure you have any cyano in those pics - I don't see any. Please point this out if you can.
The FTS is the tank now. Free of (touch wood) cyno. The latter pic is of the driftwood. Cyno is all over the mazi wood/driftwood, and on the glass bottom that's not substrate, that's cyno. It was green to start with and then turned redish over time. I'm certain it's not an oxygen issue. As you know discus temps/warmer water has less oxygen so I over compensate for that. Almost one third of the surface is dedicated to replacing oxygen.

Old pic showing surface tension before cyno took root.

 
#21 · (Edited)
Good point here by Muscleguy regarding water flow in the tank.
Cyanobacteria is anaerobic and usually thrives in low bottom areas of the tank where there is no water flow- i.e. areas which are low in, or almost devoid of oxygen.


I can't tell from your small full tank pic, Rolla, if or where there is any cyano, and from your later photo of what appears to be in the substrate area of the tank, all I see is what seems to be pieces of driftwood, a couple of which have small tufts of some greenery attached - is that correct ? I still do not see any cyano per se - please indicate where it can be located and seen


In any event, if there are no large, wide expanse, patches of cyano, here's what you can do at the time of a water change, with your filter(s) turned off, and the water level at a mid-point range of your tank level;
- At close range using a plastic syringe, or test kit pipette, spray the cyano with straight H202 ( regular household hydrogen peroxide), it should shortly form bubbles (oxygen) on the cyano - leave it this way for about 1/2 hour with filters off, then refill tank as usual. You'll see it working as the air bubbles remove themselves from the cyano & rise up into the water flow. The following morning, the sprayed areas of cyano should have disappeared.
A moderate amount of H202 used in this manner will not hurt your discus- but keep them away from getting too close when you spray to be safe.
Repeat this procedure in areas you haven't done first time around if need be.
Then improve your water flow in the bottom areas of the tank, with a strong flow from a spray bar, or an extended filter return nozzle which goes down to near the tank bottom, or even a small water circulation pump strategically placed to flow water over the tank bottom.
That should keep the cyano from returning. Having said all of this Rolla, I'm still not sure you have any cyano in those pics - I don't see any. Please point this out if you can.
 
#25 ·
I thought cyano basically only happens in stagnant water. I had a small patch of it once, looked like a gob of blue green paint stuck to the top of a plant, but as soon as I adjusted flow and dosed peroxide it dissapered. Now that damned hair algae though...that I can't beat. Tried a few amino shrimp but I guess I'd need an army . So for now peroxide and small doses of algae fix keep it in check
 
#26 ·
Phosphate seems to be the thing with hair algae. Using a phosphate absorber should help and at the very least stop it getting worse. I use the appearance of it on my anubias as an indicator that I need to change it for fresh.

Snails eat hair algae. I had none when things got bad due to loaches in the tank. Now I have more tanks I grow snails elsewhere and put the larger ones in the community tank. Though I'm seeing baby snails left to grow by the loaches now which is curious. They are supposed to be like popcorn for them. But my ramshorns definitely eat hair algae. Though it might take time for them to get to it.

My snails basically eat what the ancistrus cat doesn't eat. The loaches should stop them taking over.
 
#27 ·
Discus Tank and algae

Having bred discus many times, I recommend using RO water. This is how I kept algae from taking over. Most plants like very soft water with a pH of about 7.0, or lower. I changed 50% water nearly every day. Discus are best kept at about 80-83 degrees. Good luck.
 
#28 ·
I battled Cyano for months and was told you need to remove it by hand, black out the tank, stop dosing nutrients... well when that didn't work I literally threw out stuff it was on because its ugly and a pain. Still had cyano though.
I don't have cyanobacteria in my tanks anymore though! I dosed all my tanks, equipment, and every batch of gravel and decor I ever used with Furan-2 or double dose of melafix(for decor and fishless tanks). True Cyano is a photosynthesizing bacteria, which means antibiotics kill it. It work wonders for cyano, and I have yet to hear of some completely and utterly rid themselves of cyano without using antibiotics.
 
#29 ·
Mmmm...Barr used to recommend (possibly still does) a blackout, large water change, and dosing potassium nitrate. I suspect the potassium might be the key here - that nitrates in the absence of it tend to foster prime conditions for BGA.

I had it in a few tanks. My 75, after the recommended half doze erythromycin failed to make a dent, I just let it go for a while. It built up layers on the substrate. I finally found motivation and dosed full strength, which did kill it seemingly, but the fun of removal... I noticed that it tried to come back but was gone overnight after a dose of fertilizer.

Another tank, finally died off when I turned the lights off on the tank. I had a spray bar aimed at one patch. Didn't phase it.
 
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