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post #76 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 07:18 PM
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Yeah, I had a MARS rack I sold goldfish out of with tons of BBA. It never had a plant in it. There are definitely sets of conditions under which it thrives or dies out, but narrowing down precisely what those conditions are is easier said than done.
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post #77 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 07:22 PM
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I just dont buy this. If healthy plants are so central to the elimination/curb of growth of BBA. Why did I not have BBA in any of my tanks ( for 27 years) until I put plants in them 3 years ago?

To me, this points to a cluster of variables contributing to/controlling the development of BBA in the aquarium.

In my case, higher powered lighting was added, plants where there had been none, liquid ferts/substrate root tabs ( again, where there had been none) , and a higher demand for Co2.
Nothing works in a vacuum. You can't just have a good mass of plants and screw everything else. I have mentioned a thousand times it could be one factor or a combination of organics, light, plant mass/growth/uptake, co2, livestock, etc, etc.

It's not really debatable that a tank full of healthy growing plants will allow you more wiggle room with lights and organics. Without this uptake it's much easier to get algae given all the other parameters stay the same.

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Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
Yeah, I had a MARS rack I sold goldfish out of with tons of BBA. It never had a plant in it. There are definitely sets of conditions under which it thrives or dies out, but narrowing down precisely what those conditions are is easier said than done.
Most LFS have a TON of BBA and NO plants. They are high in livestock and waste. I'm pretty sure I've seen snails with BBA attached to their shells LOL Under those conditions even lights not plant-worthy will grow algae. Even Petco and Petsmart. Next time I go I'll take a few pics.
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post #78 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Nothing works in a vacuum. You can't just have a good mass of plants and screw everything else. I have mentioned a thousand times it could be one factor or a combination of organics, light, plant mass/growth/uptake, co2, livestock, etc, etc.

It's not really debatable that a tank full of healthy growing plants will allow you more wiggle room with lights and organics. Without this uptake it's much easier to get algae given all the other parameters stay the same.

Bump:

Most LFS have a TON of BBA and NO plants. They are high in livestock and waste. I'm pretty sure I've seen snails with BBA attached to their shells LOL Under those conditions even lights not plant-worthy will grow algae. Even Petco and Petsmart. Next time I go I'll take a few pics.
Well, obviously, the variables that make BBA prevalent in an unplanted tank were not existing in my tanks to develop. It was only after I added plants, higher lighting, ferts, and a demand for higher Co2 that it made its appearance.


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post #79 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 07:48 PM
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Well, obviously, the variables that make BBA prevalent in an unplanted tank were not existing in my tanks to develop. It was only after I added plants, higher lighting, ferts, and a demand for higher Co2 that it made its appearance.
Learn to grow healthy plants by figuring out how to manage light, co2 and organics and you will not have BBA. Until then, enjoy your BBA. Some people actually find it attractive.


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post #80 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 07:53 PM
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Until then, enjoy your BBA.
You did not just say that!


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It was only after I added plants, higher lighting, ferts, and a demand for higher Co2 that it made its appearance.
I think this is key. It seems to suffer in high tech tanks, definitely something about higher CO2 levels kills it. Or the plant's growth is taking something else out of the water that it requires. But there is clearly more to it than that. Many of my own and other's low tech tanks never see a bit of it.
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post #81 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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Learn to grow healthy plants by figuring out how to manage light, co2 and organics and you will not have BBA. Until then, enjoy your BBA. Some people actually find it attractive.
Thanks for the advice.


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post #82 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 08:01 PM
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I think this is key. It seems to suffer in high tech tanks, definitely something about higher CO2 levels kills it. Or the plant's growth is taking something else out of the water that it requires. But there is clearly more to it than that. Many of my own and other's low tech tanks never see a bit of it.
Spores need light and ammonium. The higher the light the more rapidly you will get algae reproduction. Low tech has dimmer light so the process is slower just like everything else in low tech. Co2 is NOT an algaecide. As you alluded to the co2 increases the plants uptake which removes the alga food source from the water quicker.


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post #83 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 08:08 PM
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I am sure there are those who have been successful with algae management in high tech planted Discus tanks, but I imagine it would take a lot of work. The frequent large water changes will cause issues with co2 stability. I wonder if doing the water changes after lights out, and the co2 is shut off and in the process of off gassing would help mitigate the impact?
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post #84 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 08:36 PM Thread Starter
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I am sure there are those who have been successful with algae management in high tech planted Discus tanks, but I imagine it would take a lot of work. The frequent large water changes will cause issues with co2 stability. I wonder if doing the water changes after lights out, and the co2 is shut off and in the process of off gassing would help mitigate the impact?
Usually one suffers- either the discus or the plants in the process.

Their needs are really incompatible.

I have seen some beautiful tanks with absolutely gorgeous plants : hi-tech lighting, Co2, high ferts- the works with discus. You take a closer look at the discus and they are malnourished, stunted in growth, large eye to body ratio, low-girth around head and body. Their optimum growth and vigor has been compromised due to lack of water changes, high nitrates, Co2. Discus are not like other fish, they exude a thick heavy mucus membrane daily ( which is also where their fry feed) that coats surfaces in aquarium. When this mucus builds up on tank walls, surfaces, in water column, it works as a growth inhibitor. [It is has hormones that work to inhibit growth of the discus fish].

With my discus, the plants always suffer because I wont compromise their health for plant health. There really is no balance between the two to make both optimum- the health in discus and plants simultaneously achievable. You will see pictures on the internet of the two together- but, never actual accounts of this ( Hi-tech/discus) working long term.
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post #85 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
You did not just say that!



I think this is key. It seems to suffer in high tech tanks, definitely something about higher CO2 levels kills it. Or the plant's growth is taking something else out of the water that it requires. But there is clearly more to it than that. Many of my own and other's low tech tanks never see a bit of it.

Separating cause and effect can be tricky.. more CO2 or better, healthier growth via more CO2???..


It doesn't have to take anything out but ammonia..
Or it doesn't leak anything out due to healthier tissue..


Limiting factor type stuff..

"A man with a watch knows what time it is. A man with two watches is never sure"
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post #86 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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You did not just say that!
Oh yeah, whenever he has an opportunity.


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post #87 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 08:59 PM
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Let's not get nichey, there's always certain fish or critters that need certain conditions let keep it to the 95%.
You missed the point altogether and it is why you refuse to even consider what @Edward is talking about.

It isn't nichey, all tanks with flora and fauna have these equilibriums its just the aquarium hobby tends to ignore the complex details because it isn't a requirement for growing most plants, whereas for sensitive flora or fauna more care has to be taken.

There is a complex equilibrium of Bacteria, Periphyton, Microorganisms, Organics, Fertilizers, Oxygen, Light, CO2 that forms a healthy equilibrium necessary for healthy plants and an algae free tank. Water changes interrupt this equilibrium. Just because you cannot visually observe this interruption doesn't mean that plants don't have to adapt or that nothing is changing.

This is why when establishing a new tank, time is required to cycle through various undesireable products or stages (Diatoms, Fungus, Brown Algae) these occur as result of an immature equilibrium of Bacteria and Microrganisms among other things.

It is not as simple as healthy plants, excess/balanced ferts, balanced light, increase ammonia uptake by plants >>> prevent algae. Bacteria, Plants, Plant Roots, Microorganisms, etc. in equilibrium play major roles in breaking down/filtering Organics and other substances and forming a healthy equilibrium necessary to prevent algae and promote healthy plant growth.

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If you go under this premise that algae spores take in ammonia and plants will take in ammonia first and faster to me it's logical how a tank full of healthy plants prevent BBA.
That is not an accurate or complete premise.

Algae spores(invisble) require only trace amounts of Ammonia which are present in undetectable levels in any aquarium with flora and/or fauna. Then mature stage Algae feeds on Nitrates afterwards(also present if trace Ammonia was present).

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Everything else water changes, organic removal, good husbandry, etc all help, but they won't rid a tank of algae the way a continuous uptake of ammonia will from a tank full of plants.
There is no proof for the causation in that argument. A tank full of plants can have algae or it may not.
Plants are also not a requirement for an algae free tank. BB consume ammonia quickly in most mature tanks and consumes all available Ammonia as fast as it is produced. Bacteria colonies grow/shrink in equilibrium with amount of Ammonia produced. Algae blooms from Ammonia(if a tank is out of equilibrium or uncycled) are not to my knowledge correlated with BBA but rather other forms of algae.
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Last edited by cl3537; 08-20-2019 at 09:21 PM. Reason: ....
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post #88 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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You missed the point altogether and it is why you refuse to even consider what @Edward is talking about.
There is a complex equilibrium of Bacteria, Periphyton, Microorganisms, Organics, Fertilizers, Oxygen, Light, CO2 that forms a healthy equilibrium necessary for an algae free tank. Water changes interrupt this equilibrium. Just because you cannot visually observe this interruption doesn't mean that plants don't have to adapt or that nothing is changing.

It is not as simple as healthy plants, excess/balanced ferts, balanced light, increase ammonia uptake by plants >>> prevent algae. Bacteria, Plants, Plant Roots, Microorganisms, etc. in equilibrium play major roles in breaking down Organics and other substances and forming a healthy equilibrium necessary to prevent algae and promote healthy plant growth.




That is not an accurate or complete premise.

Algae spores(invisble) require only trace amounts of Ammonia which are present in undetectable levels in any aquarium with flora and/or fauna. Then Algae feeds on Nitrates afterwards(also present if trace Ammonia was present).
Everything else water changes, organic removal, good husbandry, etc all help, but they won't rid a tank of algae the way a continuous uptake of ammonia will from a tank full of plants.[/QUOTE]

There is no proof for the causation in that argument. A tank full of plants can have algae or it may not.
Plants are also not a requirement for an algae free tank. BB consume ammonia quickly in most mature tanks and consumes all available Ammonia as fast as it is produced. Bacteria colonies grow/shrink in equilibrium with amount of Ammonia produced. Algae blooms from Ammonia(if a tank is out of equilibrium or uncycled) are not to my knowledge correlated with BBA but rather other forms of algae.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for explaining what Edward was saying.

Geezo, now Im embarrassed. That was what all that meme stuff was all about. hmm...

Well, all I can say is my Masters degree is not in the science or math field- my brain runs along different lines.

Now, however, I understand he and I believe the same thing.

He needs to learn how to explain to the lay person better or get someone like you to translate for him
You know, bring it out to the masses where it can circulate.
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post #89 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 09:51 PM
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You take everything out of context to treat your own purposes. Just like you did with the shrimp example.
This whole thread was a nice discussion, without the usual bickering and personal attacks, let us both try to keep it on track.
I don't beleive I've taken your comments out of context, if I have please rephrase your message, it was not my intention.

My repy to you summarized is really:

Trace Ammonia is not the singular cause of determining whether a tank will have BBA or not, so the fact that plants can uptake Ammonia really does not in my opinion adequately explain or predict whether a tank will have BBA or not. Ammonia, Organics, light, flow are all factors that together contribute.

I prefer this paragraph instead which touches with more detail on this topic.

Most people do not realize that aquatic plants release a large amount of photosynthate products into the water. People believe that the flow of chemicals is only one-way. But aquatic plants interact with their environment. Sugars and other carbohydrates as well as the nutrients that are released from the plants serve as food to the bacteria, which in turn serve the plants – for example, they transform minerals (salts) into plant-usable forms. Plants, therefore, in a sense, care for their own zoological garden. In nature, these products have a very low concentration, mainly due to the huge mass of water, but in our aquariums (which are really tiny compared to ponds or lakes), the released products of photosynthesis (i.e. photosynthates) easily accumulate and "clutter" the surface of the plants. The accumulated material then acts as a barrier that prevents the effective absorption of nutrients and CO2, but when these organic products start to decompose they attract algae and encourage their growth, Therefore, it is also unreasonable to dose large amounts of nutrients while neglecting maintenance. High doses of nutrients require high level of maintenance, and less frequent maintenance requires small amounts of nutrients. Therefore, when someone says he doesn't like frequent water changes, we have to answer him that he need to reduce fertilizer dosage. And if we want to reduce the amount of nutrients without asking for trouble, we also need to reduce the lighting. These three factors are closely linked, and if people do not understand it, they get into trouble. Therefore, as long as the aquarists keep the tank clean, they can safely dose virtually any amount of [inorganic] nutrients."

Clive Greene (Ukaps moderator)


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post #90 of 175 (permalink) Old 08-20-2019, 09:51 PM
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...
There is a complex equilibrium of Bacteria, Periphyton, Microorganisms, Organics, Fertilizers, Oxygen, Light, CO2 that forms a healthy equilibrium necessary for healthy plants and an algae free tank. Water changes interrupt this equilibrium. Just because you cannot visually observe this interruption doesn't mean that plants don't have to adapt or that nothing is changing.
.
Can you show me the valid peer reviewed study that proves this point. Otherwise your just postulating on how water changes disrupt this "complex equilibrium"

In reality most hi-tech planted tank people do large regular water changes and I'm not only referring to EI, but to most hi-tech setups. I really don't see their plants being harmed by this. The benefits seem to outweigh your fragile equilibrium.


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