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post #31 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 12:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Maryland Guppy View Post
I am on board with high flow and heat.

None on my plants or substrate.
Spray bar takes a whipping, tufts will grow all around the holes.
My heater gets completely engulfed in it.
Thatís because of the dense periphyton there, BBA loves it.

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post #32 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:22 AM
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BBA always stirs the greatest debates....lol I have heard all of the causes , and I know Excel/peroxide will kill it by spot treating in tank or removal and dousing the affected item . I also know that if you keep fighting it and working on balancing a tank , one day as if by magic , it is gone and seldom if ever returns . I don't think there is a timetable for this . Each tank is different and TIME is the greatest factor . It just takes time . The 2 tanks I run now I had running with a 75 before I got sick and I had them all to a point of very little to no algae of any kind . I only had to clean the inside glass once a month or so and that was just slime not algae on them . I have researched BBA and found there are many , many reasons people have for it and they may all be valid , but I don't believe there are any reasons that are universal to every tank that has it . The solution to each case is just for that tank . The OP never answered my question about it being on just that rock or others also . The reason I asked is I am always looking for a new angle on BBA....lol
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post #33 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:43 AM
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I think it would be an exceptional idea if TPT took some of these oft-discussed topics and created a sort of compendium.

I don't know how many hours I researched the causes of BBA before I even came across the idea of excess organics causing it. I spent so much time tinkering with my photoperiod, co2 etc before I came across a source that mentioned dissolved organics.

Six months ago BBA was some mysterious frustration that I couldn't figure out. Today it is no more than a checklist for my tank conditions (is it clean? Is there enough co2? light too much? Etc). Figuring out that recipe easily took a dozen (or more) hours over multiple weeks of scouring the internet.

This compendium could also serve other topics. Like co2 injection, photoperiod length... My gosh it almost sounds like a FAQ!

Think Dennis Wong's website condensed even further. A paragraph MAYBE two and a checklist per topic.

Maybe it is already out there, I don't know. I've searched a LOT. Maybe I'm naive. Probably both.
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post #34 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 02:54 AM
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I think it would be an exceptional idea if TPT took some of these oft-discussed topics and created a sort of compendium.
The problem is that there is no scientific conclusion to any of these topics.

And then you have folks like Edward telling folks that eliminating water changes and turning up the light is the key to avoiding BBA. Exactly the opposite of what I have seen to be true. So how do you decide which to believe?

When I got started, I read a few journals here and elsewhere front to back. But I concentrated on those who demonstrated success. And by that I mean regularly posted pics of their tanks, and shared both their successes and failures. Joe Harvey, Vin Kutty, and Dennis Wong were my go to's. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I am of the "show me" mind set. And those guys showed me.

So in the end, who would choose what to include? There is no absolute truth. It's almost entirely anecdotal. What we have is imperfect, but it's all we got. Only thing to do is test theories in your own tank, and see where it gets you. At least that is what I have been doing for years now.
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post #35 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 03:06 AM
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The problem is that there is no scientific conclusion to any of these topics.

And then you have folks like Edward telling folks that eliminating water changes and turning up the light is the key to avoiding BBA. Exactly the opposite of what I have seen to be true. So how do you decide which to believe?

When I got started, I read a few journals here and elsewhere front to back. But I concentrated on those who demonstrated success. And by that I mean regularly posted pics of their tanks, and shared both their successes and failures. Joe Harvey, Vin Kutty, and Dennis Wong were my go to's. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I am of the "show me" mind set. And those guys showed me.

So in the end, who would choose what to include? There is no absolute truth. It's almost entirely anecdotal. What we have is imperfect, but it's all we got. Only thing to do is test theories in your own tank, and see where it gets you. At least that is what I have been doing for years now.
That is exactly what I was trying to say in my own way , some parts more than others ....
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post #36 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 03:29 AM
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The problem is that there is no scientific conclusion to any of these topics.
..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
So in the end, who would choose what to include? There is no absolute truth. It's almost entirely anecdotal. What we have is imperfect, but it's all we got. Only thing to do is test theories in your own tank, and see where it gets you. At least that is what I have been doing for years now.
Hi Gregg 🙂

Lots of good questions, and I'm kind of thinking out loud here, so do bear with me.

TPT isn't some scientific authority, so we mustn't hold ourselves to that level.

Are you familiar with a "re-captcha"? Those little dialog boxes that make you prove you're a human when you sign up for a website by requiring you to enter a series of characters displayed on the screen?

There's a secret about those. They often don't actually know the answer themselves. Once enough people answer the question with the same answer...... That then becomes the accepted answer. Also known as machine learning.

In my example, some respected community member here such as yourself, burr, etc (too many to name), could begin a thread on these topics and the content gets refined over time according to everyone's input.

Ultimately the creator of the thread would be in charge of it, along with moderator help for interference.

I'm just saying... you could search the web for causes and fixes of bba and it may take hours and weeks before you figure out a list of the likely culprits.

......

Or you could come to a forum like this one and read a sticky.
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Last edited by jcoulter; 06-25-2019 at 10:32 AM.
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post #37 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by jcoulter View Post
Are you familiar with a "re-captcha"? Those little dialog boxes that make you prove you're a human when you sign up for a website by requiring you to enter a series of characters displayed on the screen?

There's a secret about those. They often don't actually know the answer themselves. Once enough people answer the question with the same answer...... That then becomes the accepted answer. Also known as machine learning.
That brings to mind one of my pet peeves. Folks who read a lot but have little practical experience offering advice.

I see it quite often in the Rainbow world. Something gets stated, others repeat it, and pretty soon it's accepted as fact. Problem is 90% of the ones repeating it have little to no experience. I have read hundreds of times that male Rainbows will not show good mature color without having females in the tank. I've kept Rainbow for decades in both mixed sex and all male tanks, and I can not discern any difference at all. You will hear the same from others who keep all male tanks. But yet the thought persists, mainly from folks who are new to the hobby and have never kept an all male tank.

Same for planted tanks. I recently joined FB to join some planted tank/Rainbow groups. I hate to put it this way, but there is a lot of the blind leading the blind. Someone has algae, and 5 people suggest a Phosphate remover will fix everything. Have they ever used a Phosphate remover? No. But they have read it on the internet. Do they know anything at all about the tank and considered other causes? No.

They just read somewhere that PO4 causes algae. And if you dig deeper, most offering that advice just got started in the hobby. They have little practical experience, but have spent a lot of time reading. They can't wait to show how smart they are by repeating what they have read. They have something else in common.They never post of a pic of their tank. I suspect I know why.


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In my example, some respected community member here such as yourself, burr, etc (too many to name), could begin a thread on these topics and the content gets refined over time according to everyone's input.
We do have a few threads like that here. The Custom Micro Mix and Share your Dosing threads come to mind. I think both have generated lots of great discussion.

Other than that, I find journal's to be the most helpful. When I got started, I began by following journals of those who demonstrated success with similar goals to mine. And that continues today. I still follow loads of journals here, and have learned much from others who share their journey. To me it's the collective experience and participation that makes this board a valuable resource.

And to me, Dennis Wong's site is a great resource. The thing I like about his site is that he does not have bias, and shows examples of successful tanks using all different types of methodologies. For most beginners, that site would be an excellent place to start. I have read every single word there several times over, and continue to pop in to see what's new.


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post #38 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 02:20 PM
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That brings to mind one of my pet peeves. Folks who read a lot but have little practical experience offering advice...
This is unfortunately just the nature of the web/forums) in general and many (especially newbies) are fooled by this. Someone talks the talk and someone desperately looking for answers accepts it as fact or at least personal experience. Some of the warning signs of this many times are:

1. When asked to show their own tanks they never do.
2. Constantly attach links or non-applicable studies from nature/other environments to back their claims.
3. Publicize their chemistry education and think that replaces experience.

I'm not saying this is always the case, but before following someone's advise and making any kind of serious change to your setup I would make sure the person has actual experience and simply isn't reading someone else's.
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post #39 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 03:25 PM
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That brings to mind one of my pet peeves. Folks who read a lot but have little practical experience offering advice.
Perhaps my example isn't the best, and ultimately I think your and my thoughts mostly align.

Reading journals is great, I'm on board with that. But I hope you understand that a big hurdle new aquarists face is that there is so much information out there to be read. How is a new aquarist supposed to be able to filter through the good and the bad, especially with the volume of information? That's one reason I've reached out to you personally with questions.

If you say that the answer is those tank journals, I counter by saying those often don't cover the necessary topic a newbie might be dealing with, especially for something that needs an answer soon-ish (i.e., no time to read the lengthy pages).

Literally in my mobile browser I have the following tabs open:

1) Rotala Kill Thread (540+ posts)
2) Going dutch (900+ posts)
3) Share your dosing thread (400+ posts)
4) TPT active topics

Additionally, there are several tank journals I'd like to read (the dutch ones like yours and burr's, Phil's high-tech, grobbin's blackwater etc., etc., etc.). I also subscribe to and watch a few different Youtube channels and of course the most important, spend a good amount of time observing my plants.

It's going to take a long time to get through those threads. So when I come across a problem I've not encountered before (like the first time I encountered BBA or something), my only real choice is to google it. And thus the cycle begins. I think my experience is common in that regard. As a side note, I quickly learned who Tom Barr was, and my googling turned into searching for threads about my topic where Tom had responded.

Dennis' website is fantastic, but a year+ ago when I was researching and trying to learn, I had no idea who he was - to me he was just another dude in the hobby. And I actually only came across him because his Youtube videos discussed an exact issue I was having. Today I know better, but it took me several months to figure that out. I've learned a lot from his website.

The point I'm trying to ultimately make is that my journey in this hobby (specifically planted tanks) has taken a long time to get to a point where I only now am starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. That time could be shortened for future aquarists if we, as a community hobbyist forum, included simple guides, sticky's, faqs, etc. I mean, what really could be the arguments against putting up nice, handy guides as long as moderators approve them for accurate content?

Of course, maybe I am actually the exception and I'm just complaining for complaining's sake. Could be.
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post #40 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 03:41 PM
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Nope, your point is sort of valid. For a while, I kept pointing to a buried post by @Darkblade https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/s...php?t=107303#2

I had no updated resource to point someone to until Dennis created his advancedplantedtank.com. So now I point every new person there. and it will be a sad day if it ever disappears because he feels too tired to keep it going. The stickys on here are somewhat outdated and if that's the case, may as well as remove them from the stickies or at least update them. But who's got time to do that? I've gotta go do a water change!

So, the short short answer is .. you got it. It's advancedplantedtank.com !
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post #41 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 07:31 PM
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Interesting thread. I too recently got BBA in my CO2 tank. Thought it was too much lights and ferts or maybe not enough CO2. I see here it's probably more along because I'm having issues doing large frequent water changes. I have to lift 5 gallon buckets up to around shoulder height and it starts to hurt my back really fast. I need to get me one of those python water changers, but the kitchen sink would need a faucet change. I wonder if it would work if I ran a long one to the basement deep sink?
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post #42 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by jcoulter View Post
Perhaps my example isn't the best, and ultimately I think your and my thoughts mostly align.

Reading journals is great, I'm on board with that. But I hope you understand that a big hurdle new aquarists face is that there is so much information out there to be read. How is a new aquarist supposed to be able to filter through the good and the bad, especially with the volume of information? That's one reason I've reached out to you personally with questions.

If you say that the answer is those tank journals, I counter by saying those often don't cover the necessary topic a newbie might be dealing with, especially for something that needs an answer soon-ish (i.e., no time to read the lengthy pages).

Literally in my mobile browser I have the following tabs open:

1) Rotala Kill Thread (540+ posts)
2) Going dutch (900+ posts)
3) Share your dosing thread (400+ posts)
4) TPT active topics

Additionally, there are several tank journals I'd like to read (the dutch ones like yours and burr's, Phil's high-tech, grobbin's blackwater etc., etc., etc.). I also subscribe to and watch a few different Youtube channels and of course the most important, spend a good amount of time observing my plants.

It's going to take a long time to get through those threads. So when I come across a problem I've not encountered before (like the first time I encountered BBA or something), my only real choice is to google it. And thus the cycle begins. I think my experience is common in that regard. As a side note, I quickly learned who Tom Barr was, and my googling turned into searching for threads about my topic where Tom had responded.

Dennis' website is fantastic, but a year+ ago when I was researching and trying to learn, I had no idea who he was - to me he was just another dude in the hobby. And I actually only came across him because his Youtube videos discussed an exact issue I was having. Today I know better, but it took me several months to figure that out. I've learned a lot from his website.

The point I'm trying to ultimately make is that my journey in this hobby (specifically planted tanks) has taken a long time to get to a point where I only now am starting to feel like I know what I'm doing. That time could be shortened for future aquarists if we, as a community hobbyist forum, included simple guides, sticky's, faqs, etc. I mean, what really could be the arguments against putting up nice, handy guides as long as moderators approve them for accurate content?

Of course, maybe I am actually the exception and I'm just complaining for complaining's sake. Could be.
Actually, I think you make some very good points.

When I first entered this site and began learning about planted tanks, the journals of the most experienced members were, for the most part, inaccessible to me. Even now, having a still growing knowledge of low-tech techniques, fertilization, etc..., the hi-tech conversations are way beyond my head. But, I still go in to these threads and read- hoping by osmosis it will somehow "stick." ~Also to tease them about how they're "speaking in tongues" and to give me a picture of their fish so I can connect.


As a beginner you have the difficulty of not knowing the material and also not knowing what the right questions are to learn- on top of this you are learning a new vocabulary. It can be difficult to weed through.
As a teacher, we know that scaffolding new material helps the learning process. Certainly, there are some basics that can be recognized by the most experienced members of the forum that can aid those just entering the hobby.


Edit: Look how popular this thread has been. Need more of this.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/8...beginners.html
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post #43 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-25-2019, 09:48 PM
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Reading journals is great, I'm on board with that. But I hope you understand that a big hurdle new aquarists face is that there is so much information out there to be read. How is a new aquarist supposed to be able to filter through the good and the bad, especially with the volume of information? That's one reason I've reached out to you personally with questions.
Believe me I get all this. I was a complete noob just a few years back, and still feel like one some days.

If it's any comfort, I went through the same thing as you. I remember reading Burr's thread, or Vin's threads, and thinking this sounds like complete gibberish. And then @burr740 would say something about how he observed plants responding in some way, and then he added another 5 ppm of this or that, and to be honest I thought he was pretty much out of his mind.


So I did what you are doing. I read....then re read.....and then when I was confused....yep, re read those threads again. Slowly things began to sink in. I also reached out to Burr and Vin, and both were very kind and helpful to me. It meant a lot that they showed some interest, and frankly made me want to improve and up my game. I try to pay that forward when I can, and am glad to share my thoughts when asked (but remember, you get what you pay for!).

Like I mentioned above, I think Dennis's site is probably a great place to start for most. He does a great job of explaining many of the basic concepts, and it's a good way to get exposed to all the new terms and words. If I was starting out, that would be my first stop. But even then, it's still complicated. What he is missing is case studies of regular hobbyists (like me!) who are stumbling along trying to apply it all. To me that is where the journals come in. Real people sharing real world experiences (good and bad).

A while back we had a thread titled something like "Pro tips". A lot of folks chimed in and offered their best bits of wisdom. It was a good read. Just thinking out loud, but maybe someone could start a similar type of thread where folks (the usual suspects!) summarize their tank and approach. You know, a short case study of their tank with their best do's and don'ts. Might be valuable? I don't know just a thought.
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post #44 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 07:47 AM
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Interesting thread. I too recently got BBA in my CO2 tank. Thought it was too much lights and ferts or maybe not enough CO2. I see here it's probably more along because I'm having issues doing large frequent water changes. I have to lift 5 gallon buckets up to around shoulder height and it starts to hurt my back really fast. I need to get me one of those python water changers, but the kitchen sink would need a faucet change. I wonder if it would work if I ran a long one to the basement deep sink?
Any med sized power head/pump can lift water from tub/bucket on floor to your tank, the slower you can add that replacement water back to tank the better. Plus you can use it to prep and circulate water in tub to get temp up to room and let it equalize to atmosphere.

Just get a tote of appropriate size, set on floor beside aquarium, fill it with required amount of water, add pump and let it circulate overnight. Add whatever magic dust to adjust GH etc you need, maybe even tie a small bag peat to side then, leave it partially open to air. Next day float a gallon jug of hot tap water in it to get up to temp, add your dechlor about 20min before use. I would actually put hose clamp or valve on hose to slow flow back into tank on fill up so it takes about 20min to fill tank back up. You’ll also need a U hook to go over edge of tank. When it gets to bottom you’ll hear it start suck air, unplug pump, dump that little remaining 1-2lbs of water left in tank, dry it out and throw pump, hose etc in tub and put it away till next use. Believe me your back will thank you and by prepping your water properly your tank will thank you.
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post #45 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-26-2019, 07:11 PM
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A while back we had a thread titled something like "Pro tips". A lot of folks chimed in and offered their best bits of wisdom. It was a good read. Just thinking out loud, but maybe someone could start a similar type of thread where folks (the usual suspects!) summarize their tank and approach. You know, a short case study of their tank with their best do's and don'ts. Might be valuable? I don't know just a thought.
@jcoulter

At risk of derailing this conversation again, here's the Pro Tips Thread that @Greggz mentioned. As I was sharing this elsewhere, I remembered it being brought up here and felt it useful enough to warrant being shared here as well.
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