Hair algae back with a vengeance/unable to grow plants - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Hair algae back with a vengeance/unable to grow plants

So run down of the tank,
55 gallon, low tech, medium light (im thinking still haven't found the answer), substrate is inert Carib sea super naturals ultra fine gravel, it's moderately planted
plants include:
anubias (alot)
rotala rotundifolia (alot)
Wisteria (4 stems)
pearlweed (approx 50 stems)
Amazon sword (1)
13 crypt wendtii red (they grow out of control)
6 crypt balansae
couple stems of money wart (4)
water sprite (2)

I don't know what I'm doing wrong I can't get anything to grow except the crypt wendtii reds the rotala and anubias, I do EI dosage at 5/0.5/5 2x weekly and csm+B & DTPA 11% to target 1 ppm fe 2 x weekly, my light is a fluval 3.0 running about 60-65% I think (I'll add a Pic to see if someone can help me with about how much par I'm running at) I'm guessing 40 par @ 17", I trim rotala every week, the bottoms are healthy so I haven't removed them I trim my Amazon constantly as it doesn't grow even with a nilcog root tab under it, leaves turn transparent and get holes in them (don't know why), older leaves on anubias start to curl under so I'm assuming calcium deficiency on that do in all trying to figure out how I can fix that issue, I use the dig technique to trim the anubias (remove the top layer of the rhizome when removing leaves) , I also score the rhizome to help promote more growth (someone told me that's what I should do).

So here's the issue, I have a wicked case of hair algae removing it every week by the hand fulls, I haven't changed anything in 1.5 months as I was trying to many things to quickly before, but what I'm doing now isn't working either, I cannot afford c02, nor do I have the experience in it, I don't have a canister filter so my flows kinda garbled as I have 2 aquaclear hob's a 110 and a 70 (could be one issue not sure?) and a hydor 425 gph WaveMaker... but why can't I get plants to grow? Which in turn would possibly eliminate the algae issue? I do a 50% water change every week, every 2nd water change I use a turkey baster to disrupt the surfaces of substrate to remove Organics.

Tank parameters are
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5-10 (after dosing its around 15-20, at the end of the week it's 5-10, could the algae be consuming it and starving the plants so they aren't growing like they should?)
Ph 7.5
TDS after a water change is 160 at the end of the week it's 175-180
Kh 4-5 (4 drops)
Gh 7-8 (7 drops)
Phosphate 2-2.2 (innacurate seachem test kit)

Tap water parameters are
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Kh 4
Gh 7
Ph 7.5
Tds (varies on the season, 50 summer 130-140 winter)
Phosphate 0.25

I don't understand why I can get rotala to grow like weeds but I can't get the easiest plants (Wisteria /water sprite to grow), I always hear you need c02, you need a canister, you need dirt substrate etc etc I just simply cannot afford them due too I'm disabled.

So a quick summary

Why can't I get plants to grow which would out compete the algae possibly?
Why do I have defiencies when I shouldn't?
Can I beat this hair without c02 if do how?
If I can't get Wisteria /water sprite to grow is there an alternative stem plant that's as good at excess nutrient consumption?
Could me having a low fish bioload be a contributor, if so I'll up fish amounts (I need to anyways to calm my boesesmani down he's a jerk)
I'm literally grasping at straws as I've been consistent for 1.5 to 1.8 months with everything and haven't changed anything.

Sorry if this is extensive, if I left anything out or if anything catches your eye please let me know im going nuts .

Pics are a couple weeks old, pearlweed is much more grown in now. The Wisteria in the back has been in the tank a month and not even 6"





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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 02:17 PM
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Thanks for the in-depth water parameters. Looking at those, I don’t think that you have a fert issue (you may want to push PO4 up to around 2.0 ppm). Root tabs are unnecessary with correct column dosing. So, that leaves light, carbon, organics and circulation/gas exchange.

Good that you’re trying to get a better read on your substrate PAR, but let’s assume low-med light based upon your comments. Are your troublesome plants fully covered by this light? Have you tried dialing your photoperiod down to about 6 hours / day?

The symptoms you describe could be construed to be iron, NO3 or K deficiency, but I don’t think so given your description. Instead, I’m thinking carbon given the light intensity, which makes me think that, maybe, the PAR is higher than your estimate.

To address carbon (lacking CO2 injection), I’d use Excel or Enhance according to directions to supplement the carbon needs (you can even sneak-up the dosages a little beyond recommendations), It works very well in low-tech setups and your plant list will have no problem with it.

You didn’t mention it, but make sure you clean the filter with each water change, at least until you can determine how often you need to clean it. You might try Purigen for a while to remove nitrogenous organics, then remove it once you have the tank running smoothly to see if it is needed.

Is your circulation good, with all plants showing some movement from top to bottom and is your surface being agitated well to encourage good gas exchange?

Algae: as you said, healthy plants will take care of it long term. However, if you want an instant kill of all the hair algae, so you can start with an algae-free base, here is what I do:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...l#post10762025
If you decide to do this, don't start the regular glut dosing until a week later.
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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 03:25 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the in-depth water parameters. Looking at those, I donít think that you have a fert issue (you may want to push PO4 up to around 2.0 ppm). Root tabs are unnecessary with correct column dosing. So, that leaves light, carbon, organics and circulation/gas exchange.

Good that youíre trying to get a better read on your substrate PAR, but letís assume low-med light based upon your comments. Are your troublesome plants fully covered by this light? Have you tried dialing your photoperiod down to about 6 hours / day?

The symptoms you describe could be construed to be iron, NO3 or K deficiency, but I donít think so given your description. Instead, Iím thinking carbon given the light intensity, which makes me think that, maybe, the PAR is higher than your estimate.

To address carbon (lacking CO2 injection), Iíd use Excel or Enhance according to directions to supplement the carbon needs (you can even sneak-up the dosages a little beyond recommendations), It works very well in low-tech setups and your plant list will have no problem with it.

You didnít mention it, but make sure you clean the filter with each water change, at least until you can determine how often you need to clean it. You might try Purigen for a while to remove nitrogenous organics, then remove it once you have the tank running smoothly to see if it is needed.

Is your circulation good, with all plants showing some movement from top to bottom and is your surface being agitated well to encourage good gas exchange?

Algae: as you said, healthy plants will take care of it long term. However, if you want an instant kill of all the hair algae, so you can start with an algae-free base, here is what I do:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...l#post10762025
If you decide to do this, don't start the regular glut dosing until a week later.
For flow not really I do have the wave maker at the upper part of the tank but it's flow gets cut off by the flow of the aquaclear, there is a lot and I mean a lot of splash from the hob's so there is surfaced break from them but the flow pattern is localized to the far left and the far right directly in front of the filters.

As far as cleaning them, I clean them once every 3rd water change as I have pre sponges that trap most of the stuff so the internals stay pretty clean (the pre filters however do not), I also seen an increase in algae when I added the pre filters but if I don't use them my filters eat my plants.

I have tried adjusting this light so many ways from Sunday I had everything at 50% and plants didn't grow, 70% plants didn't Grow, 8 hours at 50% plants didn't grow and bottom stems died off, plant preset for 8/7/6 hours, I could go on and on and on lol as I've done different intensities, from extremely low to extremely high.

I was going to get purigen due to I have tannins in the water from the new wood so it wont hurt anything just make my tank more clear (had algae before tannins)

Could the hair algae be consuming all the nitrate because it grows extremely fast which could be starving the plants not allowing them to grow?

As far as the excel I was told never to put it in my tank due to the fact it damages the fish cells and the plant cells and me personally (I have asthma) w/scientific studies showing the claim so I'm leery of adding it (please don't take that as me not taking advice, it's just what I've been told by many people)



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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 04:55 PM
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Hi @p0tluck,

Do you have one or two Siamese Algae Eaters (SAE / Crossocheilus oblongus) in the tank, they do a great job eating hair algae, especially if it is weakened with Excel.

Quote:
I do a 50% water change every week, every 2nd water change I use a turkey baster to disrupt the surfaces of substrate to remove Organics.
I suspect this may be contributing to the hair algae issue. The only times hair algae has occurred in my tanks is when I am going through the nitrogen cycle. Every time you disturb the substrate your are likely sending up a cloud of organics and disturbing the beneficial bacteria that are trying to break down that waste. It is very possible you are getting a small spike in ammonia/nitrites after doing the "turkey baster stir". If you feel it is necessary to disturb the substrate (I personally don't do it except when absolutely necessary and then only along the front glass) then do what I do and use a vacuum to suck out the detritus / organics that you disturb so they don't end up in the water column.

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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 05:09 PM
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The tank is looking rather nice and I don't see much, if any, algae in the pictures.

A quick temporary fix for green hair algae is API's AlgaeFix. Does the tank get much natural light (I see a reflection of a window)?

I don't see Water Sprite, could you please post a picture?

2 HOB filters should provide sufficient water agitation - any reason for us in an air bubbler?
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @p0tluck,



Do you have one or two Siamese Algae Eaters (SAE / Crossocheilus oblongus) in the tank, they do a great job eating hair algae, especially if it is weakened with Excel.







I suspect this may be contributing to the hair algae issue. The only times hair algae has occurred in my tanks is when I am going through the nitrogen cycle. Every time you disturb the substrate your are likely sending up a cloud of organics and disturbing the beneficial bacteria that are trying to break down that waste. It is very possible you are getting a small spike in ammonia/nitrites after doing the "turkey baster stir". If you feel it is necessary to disturb the substrate (I personally don't do it except when absolutely necessary and then only along the front glass) then do what I do and use a vacuum to suck out the detritus / organics that you disturb so they don't end up in the water column.



I use that exact same syphon, I do have alot of organics in the substrate from not rinsing the heaven when I added it as it was too fine to do so, I can't really vac the surface of the gravel because it's all pearlweed pretty much and the gravel gets sucked up over ontop of it I only do the turkey blaster in the pearlweed, hard to get areas (in between driftwood), I do know at the week mark, my pre filters are like mud but I have no other option unless I got bigger course sponges, I'm using a cut up sponge from an aquaclear 50 which is really fine.

I can't find any true sae's by me unless they are also called flying fox

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The tank is looking rather nice and I don't see much, if any, algae in the pictures.



A quick temporary fix for green hair algae is API's AlgaeFix. Does the tank get much natural light (I see a reflection of a window)?



I don't see Water Sprite, could you please post a picture?



2 HOB filters should provide sufficient water agitation - any reason for us in an air bubbler?
There's alot of it, here are some pictures, as we as the sprite, I can't get it to float with the hob's, literally probably a lost cause there's only 2 small pieces, as far as the air stone I was running it because I had micro bubbles from doing a water change trying to lower the risk of killing the fish, tank does get natural light as my house is all windows but that's the lowest naturally lit room in the house.

The green stuff on the anubias happened as soon as I started dosing equilibrium where the residue from the unmixed equilibrium landed on the plant leaves and burn them I think.
I dont use equilibrium anymore I dose KNO3, K2HS04,KH2P04 for npk, csm+B and DTPA 11% for micros


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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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These pics are from yesterday , I removed a handful so it's a lot better than it was.

Rotala grows like weeds, wish Wisteria, water sprite would lol

As you can see that Amazon is doing horrible and I have no idea why


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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 06:46 PM
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For flow not really I do have the wave maker at the upper part of the tank but it's flow gets cut off by the flow of the aquaclear, there is a lot and I mean a lot of splash from the hob's so there is surfaced break from them but the flow pattern is localized to the far left and the far right directly in front of the filters.

As far as cleaning them, I clean them once every 3rd water change as I have pre sponges that trap most of the stuff so the internals stay pretty clean (the pre filters however do not), I also seen an increase in algae when I added the pre filters but if I don't use them my filters eat my plants.

I have tried adjusting this light so many ways from Sunday I had everything at 50% and plants didn't grow, 70% plants didn't Grow, 8 hours at 50% plants didn't grow and bottom stems died off, plant preset for 8/7/6 hours, I could go on and on and on lol as I've done different intensities, from extremely low to extremely high.

I was going to get purigen due to I have tannins in the water from the new wood so it wont hurt anything just make my tank more clear (had algae before tannins)

Could the hair algae be consuming all the nitrate because it grows extremely fast which could be starving the plants not allowing them to grow?

As far as the excel I was told never to put it in my tank due to the fact it damages the fish cells and the plant cells and me personally (I have asthma) w/scientific studies showing the claim so I'm leery of adding it (please don't take that as me not taking advice, it's just what I've been told by many people)



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Actually, breaking (splashing) the water is not as good as rippling the water for gas exchange purpose, but it is better than nothing.

The light; you’ll have to find a sweet spot and it looks like you’re trying many angles. If you post the details of your light, someone may be able to tell you what the PAR levels might be.

There are no studies, that I have seen, that support the fear that glut destroys plants or fish cells, with one caveat: it does melt a couple plant types (anacharis and vals) if they are not acclimated to it, as these are more primitive plants than the others we employ. The fear is mainly because of the oft-cited fact that hospitals use it for sanitizing. Well, hospitals also use alcohol (more than glut) and we drink alcohol …and know it destroys our brain cells. It’s a matter of degree. The EPA restricts nitrates to 10 ppm in our drinking water, yet we pour it into our tanks at much higher levels and - surprise - our fish don’t die (right away).

If you have a specific allergic reaction to it, that’s a different story. It does work very well. I used it for more than ten years before going to CO2 injection and saw no unusual fish deaths or mutations and my plants cells did far better than without it.
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Actually, breaking (splashing) the water is not as good as rippling the water for gas exchange purpose, but it is better than nothing.

The light; youíll have to find a sweet spot and it looks like youíre trying many angles. If you post the details of your light, someone may be able to tell you what the PAR levels might be.

There are no studies, that I have seen, that support the fear that glut destroys plants or fish cells, with one caveat: it does melt a couple plant types (anacharis and vals) if they are not acclimated to it, as these are more primitive plants than the others we employ. The fear is mainly because of the oft-cited fact that hospitals use it for sanitizing. Well, hospitals also use alcohol (more than glut) and we drink alcohol Öand know it destroys our brain cells. Itís a matter of degree. The EPA restricts nitrates to 10 ppm in our drinking water, yet we pour it into our tanks at much higher levels and - surprise - our fish donít die (right away).

If you have a specific allergic reaction to it, thatís a different story. It does work very well. I used it for more than ten years before going to CO2 injection and saw no unusual fish deaths or mutations and my plants cells did far better than without it.
My light is a fluval 3.0, I'll post my settings in an attached image, I don't have a skin reaction to the glut but it does affect my breathing, I was debating on getting a canister but I'm not sure it will reach from my floor to my tank as my tanks really high up, the rim is about 5'10" almost 6 ft, I could build a stand for it I think I have the room for that, I would cycle the canister with both my hob's still running so I don't lose my cycle.

Would you be offended if I posted the research done on glut? If so no biggie I just have it saved to my drive?

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post #11 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 09:42 PM
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Would you be offended if I posted the research done on glut? If so no biggie I just have it saved to my drive?

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Please do, I'd like to see it.
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Please do, I'd like to see it.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1c8F...w?usp=drivesdk

Image to show you its real
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post #13 of 18 (permalink) Old 04-03-2019, 11:58 PM
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Thanks for posting it. Iíve never seen that study. It is not the one that I have seen that has been debunked.

I think they are speaking to fish and crustaceans only Önot plants. The summary claims that there may be embryo problems and that they found biomarkers showing that it was in the organisms, but all was sub-lethal, right? I donít see a smoking gun other than their saying that a range between 4 ppm and 31 ppm may be bad. Rather, they seem to be suggesting that a study on toxicity needs to be conducted.

However, letís take them at face value. If Excel has 1.5% glutaraldehyde, that would be 15,000 ppm of glutaraldehyde per ml, or 4 ppm / gal of tank water and this is the very bottom of what they claim to be the toxicity range. Seachem recommends .1 ml / gal daily, which is .4 ppm and is far below the claimed toxicity threshold in this study.

Incidentally, Iíve dosed 8 ppm / gal on a single-event basis, many times, with no observable impact on my fish or shrimp (plants loved it, though).
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Thanks for posting it. Iíve never seen that study. It is not the one that I have seen that has been debunked.



I think they are speaking to fish and crustaceans only Önot plants. The summary claims that there may be embryo problems and that they found biomarkers showing that it was in the organisms, but all was sub-lethal, right? I donít see a smoking gun other than their saying that a range between 4 ppm and 31 ppm may be bad. Rather, they seem to be suggesting that a study on toxicity needs to be conducted.



However, letís take them at face value. If Excel has 1.5% glutaraldehyde, that would be 15,000 ppm of glutaraldehyde per ml, or 4 ppm / gal of tank water and this is the very bottom of what they claim to be the toxicity range. Seachem recommends .1 ml / gal daily, which is .4 ppm and is far below the claimed toxicity threshold in this study.



Incidentally, Iíve dosed 8 ppm / gal on a single-event basis, many times, with no observable impact on my fish or shrimp (plants loved it, though).
That's a high dose lol, I've never dosed over 5ml for my full 55 gallon, excel isn't from what I understand an adequate carbon source but it does help with algae, I have a full bottle as I stopped using it and my plants actually grew better without it (odd), I over worry about anything I put in my tank hense another reason I don't want to go injected as I know there's a lot of things that can go wrong and kill my whole tank. I killed an anubias by direct dosing excel into algae, but that was full concentration on a semi damp plant.

I'm afraid to go anything over 5ml but I'm sure that won't touch anything in my tank as far as algae.

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That's a high dose lol, I've never dosed over 5ml for my full 55 gallon, excel isn't from what I understand an adequate carbon source but it does help with algae, I have a full bottle as I stopped using it and my plants actually grew better without it (odd), I over worry about anything I put in my tank hense another reason I don't want to go injected as I know there's a lot of things that can go wrong and kill my whole tank. I killed an anubias by direct dosing excel into algae, but that was full concentration on a semi damp plant.

I'm afraid to go anything over 5ml but I'm sure that won't touch anything in my tank as far as algae.

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That dose is just to completely annihilate hair algae. You can see the details here: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/2...l#post10762025. A lot of us use an H2O2 approach, but i was never satisfied with the results and it killed too many fish.

My experience in using it regularly at the nutrient dosing level was definitely positive. I added, withdrew it, then added and tried this cycle many times to prove to myself that it really works in a low-tech tank. It does add carbon (more than is available from atmospheric CO2), but nothing like injected CO2. Perhaps your beneficial withdrawal experience was related to a luxury uptake action, where plants seem to thrive for quite a while and it makes us think it was because we pulled back on something.
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