2.5G planted jar. Any fish options? - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-02-2017, 05:51 PM
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Originally Posted by roadmaster View Post
Most important quotation to me was in title of thread "A jar"
Jars are usually vertical in nature. So I think a 2.5G normal tank shape would be different in terms of what you can house.
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-02-2017, 06:02 PM
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Yes,would certainly be a step up, or improvement.
Larger surface area for oxygen exchange by far.
With dollar a gallon sales on aquariums at chain stores like Petco,it passes my understanding as to why the notion of placing fishes in such a small vessel is even briefly entertained.
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-02-2017, 06:23 PM
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I don't get it either. I think part of the problem is the tiny tank recommendations from at least one of the big chains on housing for example Bettas. They recommend 1/4G or larger. That is absurd, once you add gravel, small decor, plant what ever your dealing with an 1/8 of a Gallon.
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 03:44 AM
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Part of it is the challenge and novelty of creating a world in such a small space. Other times it's an aesthetic choice. A flash of life in an otherwise ordinary setting
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 02:23 PM
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Part of it is the challenge and novelty of creating a world in such a small space. Other times it's an aesthetic choice. A flash of life in an otherwise ordinary setting


IMO I think you should put the fish's well being above that. Though nano fish would fit in there, most are schoolers and would not thrive. Just because you can stuff 20 fish in there doesn't mean it's ok to do.

In this jar I would simply keep shrimp maybe snails.


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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-03-2017, 09:18 PM
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We all know, within the aquatic industry, we're only just beginning to make true progress, with regards to welfare, or at least the consideration of such a thought. Now, advocating placing fish of any species in that tank, is not something I can honestly do. As I have been working extensively (and successfully I might add), in taking tiny tanks out of show in local LFS's. Instead, understanding there is a niche and need for them, but encouraging a conversation first be had with the potential customer as to why they wish to purchase. So is it for just a couple of shrimp, a few plants, so forth. If it's for anything other than that type of environment, then no, you're going to need more space. With all of this said, a handful of shrimp, go easy on the food, stick to well established strains of shrimp too, if you can in your area. So a generic cherry shrimp would not only pop with a dark substrate and greenery, but also be low cost for this experiment of sorts. Whilst snails would (depending on the type) digest uneaten shrimp food, I would personally suggest leaving it as a species only environment, and feeding so that you can see the food has clearly been eaten in a few hours. If your shrimp then happen to breed successfully, at that very moment you need to be thinking of your next tank and establishing a larger environment for them. Or keeping either all males/females of course.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 07:23 AM
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I don't think this tank is too small for H formosas. I've seen them in videos and they aren't very active. The bigger issue is maintaining the water quality. Don't skip any water changes and keep the temperature steady. Dirty water kills much faster than claustrophobia.

Electrofunky, whatever your personal feelings about stocking, remember that there's no scientifically tested standard for how much space pet fish need to be happy, so it's ultimately up to each aquarist how they stock their tank.

Although I agree that fish need ample swimming space, I can't help but wonder - if fish are stressed by being in small tanks, why don't they school tightly in them? I'm no expert, but I think tight schooling is an indicator that the fish feel exposed. Loose schooling in small tanks may indicate that the fish feel safe, as if they were in a secluded cave or a dense patch of plants.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-05-2017, 08:36 AM
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One more time..
Folk's keep referring to a "Tank" in this thread when in point of fact, it is a JAR suitable for perhaps a small colony of shrimp only, or flower's.
No escaping this for most who possess any true empathy for the welfare of fauna.
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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 06:09 AM
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Originally Posted by roadmaster View Post
One more time..
Folk's keep referring to a "Tank" in this thread when in point of fact, it is a JAR suitable for perhaps a small colony of shrimp only, or flower's.
No escaping this for most who possess any true empathy for the welfare of fauna.
The difference between a jar and a tank being... one has silicone? I've seen round tanks and square jars. You can have a filter, heater, and light on a jar (done it), and you can have a filterless, heaterless, natural-light only tank. It's a matter of providing that which is important to an animal's wellbeing, and not necessarily the way that is done.
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 12:58 PM
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These small volumes of water or whatever you wish to call em(looks like a duck,quacks like a duck) are not suited for the well being of fishes.
Maybe 5 out of a 100 hobbyist's could sustain a few small fish in these small container's successfully over the long haul.
These 5 people don't come looking for advice on how to successfully accomplish it.
Is widely known among experienced hobbyist's, that these small container's are much more difficult to maintain healthy/stable condition's in ,suitable for long term health of life therein.
May as well give it those that don't know straight.
The fact that some video exists, showing a group of small fishes swimming about in these small container's, does not mean they survived more than a few day's or week's.
I could post up a video of an Oscar in a ten gal tank , or a dozen Koi in a 55 gal,
In reality the two examples would not help anyone(fishes either) other than those who search out someone,anyone, on these forums also doing the wrong thing to make themselves feel better about doing likewise.
I recall a young girl on another forum who prolly had thirty small bowls in her home she shared with her mother that each held a Betta or perhaps as many as 6 females to a bowl.
She was indeed able to care for these fishes until an injury left her temporarily unable to. And as she recuperated in the hospital,she left the small bowls in the charge of her mother.
Long story short, when she was able to leave the hospital and return home,she was saddened by the death of a few fish and overall condition's of these small death traps.
She then proceeded to publicly flame her mother for not providing the same care that she provided.
It was unreasonable to expect that her mother or anyone else could or would.
Just as unreasonable in my opinion, to expect much in a small jar where water chemistry /stability are much more quickly influenced than in a larger volume of water.
Opinion's vary.
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 02:53 PM
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Originally Posted by roadmaster View Post
I recall a young girl on another forum who prolly had thirty small bowls in her home she shared with her mother that each held a Betta or perhaps as many as 6 females to a bowl.
She was indeed able to care for these fishes until an injury left her temporarily unable to. And as she recuperated in the hospital,she left the small bowls in the charge of her mother.
Long story short, when she was able to leave the hospital and return home,she was saddened by the death of a few fish and overall condition's of these small death traps.
She then proceeded to publicly flame her mother for not providing the same care that she provided.
It was unreasonable to expect that her mother or anyone else could or would.
Just as unreasonable in my opinion, to expect much in a small jar where water chemistry /stability are much more quickly influenced than in a larger volume of water.
Opinion's vary.
This is so very true. The same can be said for the plant side of things. You'll see new aquarists, showing a picture of an incredible aquascape and saying they want to do the same thing. Not realizing the experience and DEDICATION it takes to keep something like that going. They usually end up with a tank of alga so bad it looks like a Tim Burton movie set.

The jar by definition is a wide-mouthed, cylindrical container made of glass or pottery, especially one used for storing food.
....and that's exactly what it should be used for.
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 03:54 PM
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I would only do this as an experienced fish keeper and only if you have a source of really tiny or young fish you want to keep temporarily. I did keep some of my few week old C. chopra fry in the upper 'tub' part of my 3.6 gallon tank/satellite, with about 6 fish as a grow out tank until they got to be about 1/2" in length.

In other words, nope, not a good idea with fish, a small population of shrimp would work with careful observation.

Starting small, keeping it simple..(?)
250 gallon stock tank, "pond"
20 gallon H CBS Shrimp tank

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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 04:45 PM
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To the OP: as you may now realize, you hit on a very visceral, impassioned topic amongst the aquarist community. Hense, my original response of "nope". I had hoped by not faning the flames it wouldn't come to this, but as it has, i'll throw in my two cents.

I bought my son, against my better judgement, a 2.5 gallon tank to house a betta. To this day, I believe that I did everything right from a technical standpoint: feeding, planting, cycling, waterchanging, etc. I even kept him alive for almost 2 years before he succumed to a bacterial infection.

I thought I could make it work because my degree is in Biology (with a focus in molecular and micro biology). I know all of the major reactions going on in a tank inside and out.

My point isnt that you need a degree to keep a small fish in a small tank, or that having a degree makes it acceptable. My point is that no matter how much you know or understand, fishkeepers are human. You will make a mistake eventually, and that small volume of water will be unforgiving. A minor lapse in attention or judgement that would would barely shift your paramaters in a 10 gallon tank will litterally be 4 times worse at 2.5 gallons. That doesn't even take into account conditions that precipitate other conditions (such as a ph spike affecting your benificial bacteria, which causes ammonia to spike).

Personally, I wouldn't go smaller than 10 gallon with livestock, regardless of what they are. This gives you the wiggle room (if properly stocked) to make mistakes and fix them before they get out of control.

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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-06-2017, 11:39 PM
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These small volumes of water or whatever you wish to call em(looks like a duck,quacks like a duck) are not suited for the well being of fishes.
By what means did you determine this? What are your criteria for evaluating the health and happiness of fish? What is the minimum amount of water required to eliminate signs of distress?

Let me clarify that I believe animal welfare is very important. I do believe that fish are able to suffer, are able to feel pain, and are able to feel rudimentary emotions like fear, curiosity, relief, and happiness (if by happiness we mean emotional pleasure, not perpetual bliss, which is impossible even for humans). I have read books about animal psychology that make a good case that fish can feel frustration. They can learn and remember. But the problem with creating standards of welfare without evidence is that there's no reason for anyone who disagrees with your standard to follow it. They could just as easily say yours is too low or too high compared with their equally untested standard. Which is what I am doing.

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Maybe 5 out of a 100 hobbyist's could sustain a few small fish in these small container's successfully over the long haul.
A quick Google search states that roughly 12,500,000 American households keep fish as pets. Let's assume your definition of "hobbyist" is super tight and applies to only 1% of them (125,000). In that case, roughly 6,250 households are skilled enough to maintain fish long-term in a nano tank. I don't think it's unrealistic to expect that the OP might become one of them.

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These 5 people don't come looking for advice on how to successfully accomplish it.
Sure they do. Knowledge can only come from two sources: personal experience, and the verbal or written records of others' personal experience. If we limited ourselves to the first, we would all be keeping handcaught minnows in buckets. The OP is doing exactly what you should when you're about to try something new: ask others for advice. And you're using that as evidence against him?

Quote:
Is widely known among experienced hobbyist's, that these small container's are much more difficult to maintain healthy/stable condition's in ,suitable for long term health of life therein.
Considering this guy has a healthy stand of plants growing in the jar, I think we could say he's experienced. He probably has a working understanding of water chemistry and the need for stability. That's a good enough foundation to start branching into more difficult areas.

Quote:
May as well give it those that don't know straight.
Yes, let's discourage people from trying hard things. How do you think the magical 5% of aquarists learned to keep small tanks? Trial and error. Why should they be allowed to do it and not the OP?

The OP is asking for advice so as to achieve the same result as more experienced aquarists with fewer mistakes. Instead of telling him how to avoid the pitfalls, you're saying it can't be done and he shouldn't try, whereas he can clearly see that it can be done (since others have done it), and you are preventing him from learning how.

Quote:
The fact that some video exists, showing a group of small fishes swimming about in these small container's, does not mean they survived more than a few day's or week's.
I could post up a video of an Oscar in a ten gal tank , or a dozen Koi in a 55 gal,
In reality the two examples would not help anyone(fishes either) other than those who search out someone,anyone, on these forums also doing the wrong thing to make themselves feel better about doing likewise.
I agree, a few minutes of video says nothing about the long term viability of any setup. But it's not hard to find entire breeding setups with tiny barren tanks packed full of fish. Killifish breeders in particular like to use very small tanks. In laboratories, zebra danios are bred and raised in tanks less than 5g, often without any decor, as you can see here:

How do these tiny tanks work? The water is kept clean, the temperature and pH are kept stable, and the fish are observed daily for signs of disease. If the OP maintains those conditions in the jar, the fish should be fine.

Oscars and koi are unsuited to such small tanks because they both grow to very large sizes. Would you agree that a 10g is enough for a betta? An Oscar is over 5 times the length of a betta, and easily 20 times the weight. Should their tank be either five or twenty times larger than a betta's? H Formosas are less than half the length and a quarter the size of bettas, so why should a 2.5g jar be too small for them?

Quote:
I recall a young girl on another forum who prolly had thirty small bowls in her home she shared with her mother that each held a Betta or perhaps as many as 6 females to a bowl.
She was indeed able to care for these fishes...
In other words, it can be done.

Quote:
...until an injury left her temporarily unable to. And as she recuperated in the hospital,she left the small bowls in the charge of her mother.
Long story short, when she was able to leave the hospital and return home,she was saddened by the death of a few fish and overall condition's of these small death traps.
She then proceeded to publicly flame her mother for not providing the same care that she provided.
It was unreasonable to expect that her mother or anyone else could or would.
I agree it's unreasonable to expect others to be able to step into your shoes when you have a hobby that requires a lot of expertise and commitment. I think it's equally unreasonable to ban everyone from diving that deeply into their hobby. Just about every high-tech reefer would have to quit.

Quote:
Just as unreasonable in my opinion, to expect much in a small jar where water chemistry /stability are much more quickly influenced than in a larger volume of water.
I don't think the OP is expecting too much. He didn't ask how many goldfish he could put in the jar, he asked what species of fish are small enough to live comfortably in it. He doesn't expect a large fish to live in it, he expects a small fish to live in it. Which is possible, though difficult.

Your objection seems to hinge, not on the practicality of maintaining fish in the jar, but on the morality of keeping fish in small spaces. Centuries ago, keping fish in small pots and bowls is how the hobby started. Most people who get into the hobby start with a small bowl or tank. You can't deny that fish can live in very small containers. You can't even deny that they can breed and several generations can live out their natural lifespan in such containers. So, on what evidence, aside from your own personal feelings, do you say that these small containers are completely unsuitable for keeping even the smallest and hardiest fish?

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Opinion's vary.
Exactly. Why should your opinion be given more weight than mine or the OP's? Give me evidence supporting your opinion, and mine may change.
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 06-07-2017, 12:25 AM
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How do these tiny tanks work? The water is kept clean, the temperature and pH are kept stable, and the fish are observed daily for signs of disease. If the OP maintains those conditions in the jar, the fish should be fine.
I didn't read your whole post, but are you actually comparing the stability and cleanliness of a huge central filtration system to a jar with a sponge filter. Sorry, you lost me on that one.
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