Canister Filter Failure and a Total Die-Off - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-10-2020, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Somefishguy View Post
I assume you use a dechlorinator with each water change. The only thing that can kill fish that fast is chlorine. Chlorine is toxic in very small quantities, on the order of 0.05 ppm chlorine. City water can also have what is called Super (Shock) Chlorination. Assuming all other water parameters are OK.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_chlorination


If the city ever did a 'super chlorination' they will not tell anyone. The chlorine will be gone in a day or so. You have to have a test kit for this.


Just something to think about as a lot of folks have lost their entire tank to this. That's why it is recommended when adding your de chlorination that 2 times the amount be added just in case this ever happens. Folks don't realize this as it happens fast and the chlorine is gone.

This is true only if you live in a third world country or believe false stories read on the internet!
Perhaps you did not bother to actually READ and understand the report you linked?
QUOTE:
"Shock chlorination is a process used in many swimming pools, water wells, springs, and other water sources to reduce the bacterial and algal residue in the water. Shock chlorination is performed by mixing a large amount of sodium hypochlorite, which can be in the form of a powder or a liquid such as chlorine bleach, into the water. The common advice is that the amount added must raise the level of chlorine to 10X the level (in parts per million) of chloramines present in the pool water-this is "shocking". A lesser ratio is superchlorinating.[1] Water that is being shock chlorinated should not be swum in or drunk until the sodium hypochlorite count in the water goes down to three ppm or less. Commercial sodium hypochlorite should not be mixed with commercial calcium hypochlorite, as there is a risk of explosion.[citation needed] Although a verb for superchlorination,[2] "shock" is often misunderstood (through marketing and sales language) to be a unique type of product."

Even a suspect source like Wiki knows the difference!
Treating pools to be safe to swim is NOT the same as treating drinking water and this article specifies that the water is not safe to drink!

If you know anything about chlorine, it is not a fast killer as it does burn the soft tissues like gills and that does slowly choke them to death.
As for the "super chlorination" you need to read the water regs and do a bit of thinking! Super chlorination as you describe will also kill people, so do you get lots of people dying in your neighborhood when they do the "super chlorination" or are you just passing on bogus information?
I assume you are new and have never done much reading about water treatment, so I would suggest you first read a Consumer Confidence Report (CCR) as required to be available to consumers. It will list what treatment your water company uses, the minimum and max amounts tested in the system over the last year as well as the maximum amount allowed!
Please stop repeating bad information or post up better info than what you have!
Super chlorination is used in swimming pools!
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post #32 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-10-2020, 10:03 PM
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Reasons for Super-Chlorination

There are several reasons for super-chlorination:

In the summer months warm water will cause blooms of algae, which cause the water to smell “musty”. To treat this smell, many municipalities super-chlorinate.

If an area has had flooding or heavy rains, municipal water sources often have to add even greater loads of chlorine.

Municipalities which use chloramines must do super-chlorination on a regular basis as chloramine allows bacteria to build up in pipes in what is called a ‘biofilm”. The bacteria in this biofilm resist chloramine and only respond to high levels of chlorine. So, with some water supplies super-chlorination can occur at any time of the year.

When a water line breaks and the municipalities repair it they need to remove any bacteria that may have gotten into the lines. So they will super-chlorinate.

These events are called “super-chlorination events” and are extremely common killers of fish, especially in the summer months:

Found this info here...

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/5-5-1-chlorine/
https://aquariumscience.org/index.ph...nd-chloramine/

Last edited by Somefishguy; 11-10-2020 at 10:14 PM. Reason: typos
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post #33 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-10-2020, 11:33 PM
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Did you use a de-chlorinator, such as Prime, on the Purigen before returning it to the filter? If not, you may have a chlorine problem as well as a surfactant problem.

The splashless bleach, as others have mentioned, does add a surfactant. This will do double damage. It makes it nearly impossible to keep gasses (such as oxygen) in the water and it will make it very difficult for the fish gills to absorb oxygen. Keep up the water changes and oxygenate as heavily as possible. This means adding as many pumps as you can and point them at the surface for heavy rippling, without breaking the water’s surface.

Check your pH. some surfactants and bleach can dramatically increase pH and actually burn away the slime coating and damage the gills. However, your water changes may have addressed this possibility.

My guess is that the fish died of suffocation.
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post #34 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-10-2020, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Somefishguy View Post
Reasons for Super-Chlorination

There are several reasons for super-chlorination:

In the summer months warm water will cause blooms of algae, which cause the water to smell “musty”. To treat this smell, many municipalities super-chlorinate.

If an area has had flooding or heavy rains, municipal water sources often have to add even greater loads of chlorine.

Municipalities which use chloramines must do super-chlorination on a regular basis as chloramine allows bacteria to build up in pipes in what is called a ‘biofilm”. The bacteria in this biofilm resist chloramine and only respond to high levels of chlorine. So, with some water supplies super-chlorination can occur at any time of the year.

When a water line breaks and the municipalities repair it they need to remove any bacteria that may have gotten into the lines. So they will super-chlorinate.

These events are called “super-chlorination events” and are extremely common killers of fish, especially in the summer months:

Found this info here...

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/5-5-1-chlorine/
https://aquariumscience.org/index.ph...nd-chloramine/
So you have a choice to make. Believe what you read on websites on the internet and often from people selling products to solve all your problems OR you can choose to look for real information and study what is actually done!
Again, I suggest you stop looking at dopey articles that claim to know but have a reason to mislead you. Then when you have a better attitude about the info, go to the official government sites and read what the specific tests and levels are for chlorine or chloramine added to drinking water.
Have you at any time looked at the test reports for your water supply?
You seem to have the idea that super chlorination as done in swimming pools and other non-potable water has something to do with the treatment water supplies do for our drinking water.
The posts you refer us to are no more accurate than any other source of hobby level information!
What super chlor means to tap water is a totally different level than done in other uses. If one has new pipe to clean, breaks in a line or excess growth, there are special methods used to put it in where needed and take it out before passing it on to the customers. You pump the high chlorine water in and you pump it out and collect it to be treated and released as waste water! Not simple but required when dealing with drinking water!
You may have heard of "boil water orders"? Those are for emergencies when the water is not safe to use and those can come about but they are not the normal situation. You may have heard of different suppliers being fined for breaking the regs? If you put out bad water and don't notify the public you certainly get whacked in fines.
Stop to think what happens when people drink strong chlorine and then I ask you again,
Do you have lots of people dying from being poisoned?
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post #35 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-10-2020, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Roboto View Post
Just going to chime in and say 10% water changes could be 30%-60% if you're confident in your water prep process.
Get up to tank temperature and dechlorinated.
I've changed 75% of the water at a time when dealing with an emergency without any problems.
But typically I'll do 50% a few days in a row to get things back to normal.

I don't see any reason to double dose dechlorinators. Following the label is usually the best idea as a safety factor is already built in.
What product do you use?
I took it way down today. 80%+. I rinsed and squeezed everything in buckets of prepared water, reinstalled everything and refilled.

20% for the next few days.

I expect to keep the carbon in for a week and get back to regular media.

I have a selection of water conditioners but usually use prime.
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post #36 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 01:02 AM
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First, just wanted to say I'm terribly sorry this has happened. I'm sure a lot of us here know the feeling, and I got out of reefing after a similar incident myself. Glad you're not discouraged to the point of giving up!

I'm very surprised your shrimp survived while fishes did not, and this almost entirely eliminates ammonia poisoning in my view. Unless they are ghost shrimp; almost all others have a lower tolerance to nitrogen poisoning than all but the most fragile bony fish do. But I doubt anyone knows their tolerances to various oils and other less-often seen toxins that may affect aquatic vertebrates more. There is so much that we simply don't know, and this hobby doesn't generate enough money to warrant research into such things.

Until I saw the photo, I didn't think much of the description of foam at the surface. Tanks full of dead fish foam over. So many proteins and oils will rise to the surface and cause this effect. But after owning a LFS for a decade this looks different than when a tank full of feeder rosy reds wipes out. It's perfectly clear large bubbles for starters, rather than brownish tinged smaller ones. Splashless bleach is almost certainly the culprit. I use more Purigen than anyone I know in real life or on forums, and will not use the recharged media in my own shrimp tanks. I do use it on my one fish tank and my garden pond, just so I can feel like I don't hate money but the process has always made me wary. I agree with everyone else that this is the cause. Getting it out of the tank via water changes, carbon, whatever you can would seem the route. The strangest things have wiped out entire aquariums. I worked at a LFS in the early 90's and the owners let their daughter net fish for customers one day. We noticed that fish were stressed and dying in several and connected the dots that they were only the ones she had put her hands in. Right in the middle of this discussion, we saw her putting her strawberry scented lotion on her hands.
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post #37 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 02:32 AM
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?

Well the good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it.
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post #38 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 02:25 PM
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Well the good thing about science is that it’s true whether or not you believe in it.
In my view that is certainly true but you are not getting your science from the right place if you are using an internet hobby group. Try going to real science first or second but keep digging to get the right answers.
I have not done any water treatment work in 20 years but I do NOT believe any of the phoney stuff about super chlor in our drinking water! We use it to treat new things like water towers but it has to be collected and treated as waste water, not send out for people to drink!
Figures don't lie but there are certainly a lot of liers who did the figures and you have been quoting folks who are slanting the figures to make a good story!
Tap water and Prime are safe to use as directed! Most of us who have been at this very long have killed or damaged enough fish to know what chlorine does but the article you referred to went way out on a "mission" to give a totally different story!
I think this posting has sorted out the real cause of death in this case and it is not chlorine!
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post #39 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 02:39 PM
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Well looks like most states have another opinion. Science is great.

Chloramines Q and A.pdf

Edit - I never said it was the cause of the OPs issue, just something that might have been. Agree, it probably doesn't happen often. I did pull my Water Quality report for my county and it says they can use up to 4 ppm of chlorine if needed but normal is .2-.5 ppm.

Last edited by Somefishguy; 11-11-2020 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Added info.
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post #40 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Blue Ridge Reef View Post
First, just wanted to say I'm terribly sorry this has happened. I'm sure a lot of us here know the feeling, and I got out of reefing after a similar incident myself. Glad you're not discouraged to the point of giving up!

I'm very surprised your shrimp survived while fishes did not, and this almost entirely eliminates ammonia poisoning in my view. Unless they are ghost shrimp; almost all others have a lower tolerance to nitrogen poisoning than all but the most fragile bony fish do. But I doubt anyone knows their tolerances to various oils and other less-often seen toxins that may affect aquatic vertebrates more. There is so much that we simply don't know, and this hobby doesn't generate enough money to warrant research into such things.

Until I saw the photo, I didn't think much of the description of foam at the surface. Tanks full of dead fish foam over. So many proteins and oils will rise to the surface and cause this effect. But after owning a LFS for a decade this looks different than when a tank full of feeder rosy reds wipes out. It's perfectly clear large bubbles for starters, rather than brownish tinged smaller ones. Splashless bleach is almost certainly the culprit. I use more Purigen than anyone I know in real life or on forums, and will not use the recharged media in my own shrimp tanks. I do use it on my one fish tank and my garden pond, just so I can feel like I don't hate money but the process has always made me wary. I agree with everyone else that this is the cause. Getting it out of the tank via water changes, carbon, whatever you can would seem the route. The strangest things have wiped out entire aquariums. I worked at a LFS in the early 90's and the owners let their daughter net fish for customers one day. We noticed that fish were stressed and dying in several and connected the dots that they were only the ones she had put her hands in. Right in the middle of this discussion, we saw her putting her strawberry scented lotion on her hands.
Thanks for the comments. They are indeed Ghost Shrimp!

My big question is, How Do I Know When it's Gone?

Do you have any experience with that? I hate to think that I'll have to just add livestock and watch to see if they die.

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post #41 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 03:20 PM
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Unfortunately I don't think this is anything that you can test for using reagents, at least not ones we would have in the hobby. We don't know either the exact chemical compound nor even how much over the lethal level it was. I would want to feel like I'd changed darn near all of the water, whether that's by draining completely and refilling (which has its own risks to your surviving fauna and cycle) or so many partial water changes that you would feel safe that it would be diluted out. For first fish, I'd start with something very hardy like danios.
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post #42 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 03:21 PM
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Oh, thank you BTW. With this discussion I just happened to check my API Tap Water Conditioner and I have been using way too much. For a 75 gallon tank, is say to use only 3.75m (for Chlorine). The cap is incremented at 5 and 10 ml. I was using a about 15 ml when I do my water changes at 4 or 6 week. Now I only have to use the 5ml mark.
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post #43 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 03:36 PM Thread Starter
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Unfortunately I don't think this is anything that you can test for using reagents, at least not ones we would have in the hobby. We don't know either the exact chemical compound nor even how much over the lethal level it was. I would want to feel like I'd changed darn near all of the water, whether that's by draining completely and refilling (which has its own risks to your surviving fauna and cycle) or so many partial water changes that you would feel safe that it would be diluted out. For first fish, I'd start with something very hardy like danios.
Any particular Danio species? Zebras?

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post #44 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 04:10 PM
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Zebras and giant danios would be at the top of my list of hardiest fish in the hobby. Though stocking a tank with giant danios is going to make selection of other tankmates a bit more difficult since their feeding response is piranha-like.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
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post #45 of 66 (permalink) Old 11-11-2020, 07:59 PM
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So sorry to hear this happened ! I had almost the exact tragedy a couple months ago. Same as you, just a regular canister maintenance day, however I made a grievous error when I recharged my bag of Purigen. I mistakenly purchased " splash proof bleach" . I soaked the bag of purigen as I always have ,let it sit overnight, rinsed twice, dechlorinated and put back in the canister. Imagine my horror the next morning when I got up, all my fish were dead! The only survivors were the amano shrimp, and some snails. You mentioned that you added a recharged bag of purigen, so do you know what kind of bleach you used ? There is a surfactant in splash proof bleach, which is deadly to fish, once it has come in contact with any filtration material ,it can't be neutralized. Just my thoughts...
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