Fish Won't Stay Alive - Page 2 - The Planted Tank Forum
 41Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-26-2020, 10:30 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 5,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by SueD View Post
I really wouldn't bother with adjusting PH as I believe the fish will adapt to yours. Changing out substrate is, of course, a much larger project in a 90g than my small 5g but oh, wouldn't that be great if it solved your issue.

As I mentioned, when I first used the Tahitian Moon it was many years ago. It was easily found everywhere and I had no issues with that tank. I restarted this 5g just about a year ago and had a hard time finding this substrate. Was wondering if it was starting to be discontinued. I still wonder if that was my problem but it's the only change I've done that seems to have turned things around.

As for MTS, yuck! I have them too, everywhere, in some of my other tanks. I've spent lots of $$$ on assassins with great success over the years but these good guys don't seem to breed well enough to sustain themselves. So as they die out the MTS take hold again, rapidly. You know how easy it is to have hundreds in such a short time - why worry about them. They'll be baaaack! For now, my 5g is free and clear of any snails except my nerite as I've only used TC plants and one anubias that apparently was also clear of pests.
I hate MTS snails. Only had them once and they grossed me out so much I tore the tank down. The soil moved- it was vile.
SueD likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2020, 12:40 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PlantedRich's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12,358
Before jumping to the really hard stuff of changing out the sub, I would want to be sure it was a problem. One way to begin to sort the potential problem is using the 30 as a QT but not for the normal reasons of watching for disease but to let you know that all is well with the moving bagging, adding to the tank and your water. If you get them home and they can live in the smaller tank for some amount of time, even a week, that should tell you they are okay. Then if you move a few over to the main tank, you can have an almost scientific method or experiment. you have a set of fish who may get sick while you have a "control group" who are not exposed to the main tank.
Kind of like the testing for the virus shots? Some get the real stuff while others get the placebo? How long to continue the experiment, will depend on how safe and sure you want to be that the main tank is okay.
I do not feel water PH, GH or KH are killers alone but more likely to stress fish and that stress makes them more prone to disease. Same thoughts on high light, it may be stressful but no cause of death directly. I feel we can spot severe stress and light will drive some to hide more than normal and I see it long before they die. With lots of plants, I would expect fish to be hiding in and under the plants long before reaching critical.
SueD, Deanna and Discusluv like this.
PlantedRich is offline  
post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2020, 01:31 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Discusluv's Avatar
 
PTrader: (4/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Elk Grove, California
Posts: 5,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
Given the commonality of lethargy along the bottom and rapid gill movement, Iím inclined to think, first, in terms of water quality. However, perhaps we can draw @Discusluv in to work through the disease potential.

What is your water source and do you use a water softener? Iím assuming that you are treating new water if there is any concern for chlorine/chloramine. When you change your water, does the tank temperature remain relatively stable (+/- 5 oF)? Does your tank water have an odor? Has your ammonia test expired?

What are you dosing (product and quantity), in terms of ppm, and how often? What is your feeding regimen (frequency and quantity) and what are you feeding?

Substrate type and how long has it been in place? How do you clean the substrate?

What is your filter setup (media used and cleaning routine)?

Any chance of getting a TDS reading (TDS meters are cheap)?

Is the tank exposed to any environmental contaminants?

How do you acclimate new fish?
I no longer do sick fish stuff. But, you are in good hands with @PlantedRich
Deanna likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Amy
Discusluv is offline  
 
post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2020, 01:39 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: PA
Posts: 2,154
Make sure you are feeding enough. White poop can be a sign of insufficient feeding, but it can also be other things. They should have enough food to last about 5 minutes before being consumed.

TDS may provide a signal if there is a lot more in your water than the GH, KH and NO3 would indicate.

I don’t think that any of your GH, KH or NO3 readings are cause for concern, nor do I think that your lights are affecting the fish. This is something else.

@PlantedRich has a good idea about using the 30-gal as a QT to rule out anything in your main tank. Leave the tank bare (no substrate) and no need to cycle the tank. Instead, put a bag of Seachem Purigen in the filter and monitor ammonia daily (Seachem also makes a good sensor; “Ammonia Alert” which is useful for this).

When I acclimate new fish, I match the GH of the tank water to that of the LFS water, before adding the fish. I also verify that the TDS of the tank QT water and the LFS water are within 10% or 50ppm of each other, whichever is greatest. After observing the fish for 3 weeks in the QT, I change about 25% of the QT water, daily, with the main tank water and, after four days of this, move the fish to the main tank. I keep Seachem ParaGuard handy in case a disease appears.

Prior to moving the fish into the QT, I keep the fish in a plastic trash can (dumping the entire contents of the LFS bags into the can) and drip acclimate over a two-hour period with water from the QT.

Don’t feed the fish until the second day and it is better to not use lights the first day.
Deanna is offline  
post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2020, 01:56 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Franklin, MA
Posts: 958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
I hate MTS snails. Only had them once and they grossed me out so much I tore the tank down. The soil moved- it was vile.
My sentiments, exactly. I also tore apart one of my 20g's because of these but that's such a drastic step that I've made relative peace with them right now. They just transfer from tank to tank. It was only maybe 6 months ago that my 40b was free and clear and now they're back there as well as in my 20g's. I'll go the assassin route again when I feel like spending the money. To be really effective, I was dropping 20-25 assassins into each tank, and then some more. Why these good buggers didn't breed is beyond me. But I stopped using pellet
foods some time ago which I believe has helped some with the MTS numbers.
Discusluv likes this.
SueD is offline  
post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2020, 03:07 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PlantedRich's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12,358
I've never been able to get totally rid of the MTS in my tanks. I don't know how they even got started but it must have come in with some fish I was given to "baby sit while a fellow was looking at a divorce. I kept his fish for a while and got MTS in return. Bummer!
One way to reduce the numbers but not get rid of them in planted tanks is to use and old net and scoop it full of the sub and MTS, then shake it to let the sand trickly out and throw the MTS out! I'll never get them out of the roots and plants but I can knock them back so that the whole tank is squirming! I don't like to see my sand wiggle!
PlantedRich is offline  
post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-27-2020, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Thanks again for the responses.

It's reassuring to see that the general consensus is that the issue doesn't seem to lie with my pH, gH, kH, or NO3 because I also did not believe my readings were severe enough to warrant death in such numbers and consistency. For the time being, I'll hold off on the RO water changes. I find it funny how the MTS really don't seem to be desired in a lot of tanks because, to be frank, I rather like them. I added MTS intentionally some time back and have enjoyed them ever since (but to be fair they are one of the only things I am able to keep alive). To me, the MTS don't bother me aesthetically because they primarily only come out when lights are off and I feel like they do a decent job at eating any decaying dead plant matter, algae, and uneaten food, with the added benefit of constantly stirring my sand while fertilizing my substrate and keeping air pockets from forming. I more so felt guilty if I changed my substrate and killed hundreds of them in the process, but that is a last resort thing it seems.

@PlantedRich @Deanna: I also think using the 30 as a QT tank is a very good idea considering I already have all the necessary equipment (filter, heater etc.). I will most likely set this up today using tap water with prime to dechlorinate, then give it a day or two to heat up to the correct temp. When adding fish to the QT tank I'll also start using the drip method over the course of two hours, but as Deanna mentioned I may add a drop of prime to the bag water first to detoxify any ammonia build up that occurred in the bag water if you think this is a good idea. Even if I can get them to live in the QT tank for a week and they appear active and healthy that would be a great improvement then what I typically get when adding directly to the 90. If I then move some over to the 90 and they die but the others in the QT tank stay fine then I'll know the issue lies with the 90 and not with acclimation or fish health, at which point the real trouble becomes pinpointing the underlying issue. Also, the main reason I haven't been feeding more Deanna is because none of the fish were ever accepting food so I didn't see the point in attempting to feed them more than what I was.

Again, thanks for all of the input.
Scutler is offline  
post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2020, 06:35 PM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 9
Update:

I have set up the 30 gallon for a QT tank, buts it's looking like my heater only wants to bring the water to about 77 at max power so I'll need to invest in a new heater before making use out of that tank.

I received my TDS meter and KH/GH test kit in the mail today and my results were pretty... interesting. My TDS meter reads 332 ppm, KH 4 degrees (71.6ppm), and gH 7 degrees (125.3 ppm). I knew my KH was around that level but my gH and TDS seemed rather high especially since I did a few partial water changes using RO water. So I decided to measure my tap. TDS was only 132 ppm and gH was only 4 degrees (71.6 ppm) both lower than the readings from my tank. I'm really surprised my tank read higher values in both of these categories especially considering RO water was added, could this somehow be related to the issue at hand? Could my substrate or something else be leeching this into the water (maybe that one dose of seachem flourish)? Is this normal in freshwater aquaria? Are these levels still something that I shouldn't be too concerned with (I'm not familiar with safe or acceptable levels of TDS, but the gH doesn't seem astronomically high IMO). Not really sure how to interpret these results.
Scutler is offline  
post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2020, 07:53 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
PlantedRich's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: United States
Posts: 12,358
I feel you will be fine at any of those values on GH if you keep things steady. The fish adapt but it is really super hard if they are chasing a moving target and that stress will add up over time.
Ph is one we read about a lot but I have been at it so long that I have just gotten around to trying any fish I want and then if I see something not working out, I've gotten in the habit of simply changing fish, rather than changing water. My water is what it is and most of my experience has been in the more Central parts of the country where the water is almost always hard and alkaline to some extent.
I used to do a lot of swapping and trading and often got fish with tanks so that I have had a wide variety of fish but all have come from local and none really did badly. I had some platies who did not breed well but they were not a real interest and I never gave it much attention.
The point being that I currently have super hard, super alkaline water in Central Texas where our topsoil is often only a foot thick and setting on solid limestone, leaving the water really off the mark for what is recommended for many of the South American fish. But the fish don't know that as they grew up here! My PH is 7.8-8.0 and above 300 ppm GH but they adapt!
Way back before my planted tanks.
Example is this group of Rainbow cichlids in normal colors and then two in breeding (warpath!) colors protecting the little black pile of fry below them! They seemed okay with the water !
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	fish2-19-2011017-1.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	104.4 KB
ID:	903487  

Click image for larger version

Name:	fry001-1.jpg
Views:	7
Size:	68.1 KB
ID:	903491  

Attached Images
 
SueD and victorusaconte like this.
PlantedRich is offline  
post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2020, 08:15 PM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
jellopuddinpop's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: CT River Valley, CT, USA
Posts: 555
MODERATOR NOTE:

I deleted your post but am leaving this intact to let others know you were an absolute ass.

Don't treat people with such disrespect. It's possible to disagree without being disgusting.

Unreal.

Edit: I was definitely condescending, but the person I quoted had been corrected in several other posts where s/he gave incorrect advice. All of those replies were polite and informative, but s/he continued to provide bad advice to new people who had genuine questions. I was rude, but nothing I said was inaccurate. If the person I had quoted had listened to the previous times that s/he had been corrected, I wouldn't have been so rude.

Regardless, I apologize for being nasty. I hate seeing newcomers getting bad advice, especially from someone that should know better.

If you ever think you're too small to make a difference, spend a couple of nights sleeping with a mosquito.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by jellopuddinpop; 09-29-2020 at 02:53 AM.
jellopuddinpop is offline  
post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-28-2020, 08:51 PM
snails are your friend
 
Blue Ridge Reef's Avatar
 
PTrader: (13/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Asheville, NC
Posts: 3,010
I get the references, and don't take issue with a single point you made -but you have to be able to disagree with a post without being utterly condescending in your reply.
victorusaconte likes this.

Nothing good happens fast in an ecosystem.
Blue Ridge Reef is offline  
post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-29-2020, 04:23 AM Thread Starter
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Aug 2020
Posts: 9
@PlantedRich: Thanks again for your input. And yea, I was also always led to believe that fish tend to adapt to pH and hardness quite readily so long as they're not going from one extreme to another. I know a lot of my LFS have pH on the higher side around 7.2 and I'm assuming their water also has a comparable hardness to mine as well, next time I can ask or test the bag water. Regarding my gH and TDS readings I guess I was more concerned with the why rather than the what. How is it possible that my tank water has a higher gH and TDS than my tap especially when I added RO to it. I was hoping that this might lead me in some way closer to the culprit behind all the deaths but at this point I may just be grasping at straws. Perhaps maybe my substrate had been contaminating my water column all this time or something along those lines.

Awesome looking cichlids btw! Hope the fry did well.
victorusaconte likes this.
Scutler is offline  
post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-29-2020, 05:14 AM
Planted Tank Obsessed
 
butchblack's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: Waltham, Massachusetts, USA
Posts: 429
Like some other posts, the universality of the problem makes me think either something is in the water or you have low O2, which might explain why the corys last a little longer. Was anything used to clean the tank before setting it up? Same for rocks and other decorations? Do you have decent water circulation? Are you running CO2? If so, is it on a controller or are you using a bubble counter and co2 checker? Do you leave your CO2 on 24/7 or turn it on/off with the lights? Any swampy smells from the tank? Sorry for all the questions.

The real fountain of youth is being a musician
butchblack is offline  
post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-29-2020, 11:58 AM
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Franklin, MA
Posts: 958
If that heater maintains 77F, that should be fine for experimenting with the QT tank. Not sure what your ultimate goal is for type of fish, but many cories in particular like it a little cooler. And all of my tetras, pencilfish, rasboras, are fine in 74-75F in tanks without heaters.

It will be interesting to see if you just use treated tap water, a cycled filter and some of the more hardy fish you'd like to have. No substrate for this test? Is this the plan? You could probably add in a few plants like annubias or java fern or even clumps of moss that don't need to be planted. If they're attached to rock or wood, maybe remove even that hardscape just for now to limit any other factors. So fish, water, cycled filter, maybe a few plants? I'm really hoping this will provide some answers for you.
SueD is offline  
post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old 09-29-2020, 09:50 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posts: 6
Just looking at the picture of the tank- What is the "driftwood" you have in there?
BTW- I personally love MTS, I purposely add to a tank, especially if sand substrate. I know when I first did a planted tank 25 years ago and was startled by the bladder snails that came on the live plants (they didn't have tissue cultured back then that I knew of) I thought they where disgusting. I don't get many of those compared to MTS but if you really don't want them a clown loach will take care of them. When they get to big or mission is complete you can always rehome them.

Walk the Red Road
Squidhead is offline  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome