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post #1 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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Poor Angel

One of my black angelfish does not look so good:



All but certain this originated from some roughtanking with her mates. Has had these same sore spots for weeks but smaller and without the fluffy cotton-like (fungus?) stuff. One of the platinums had similar but it never got this bad and healed on its own. During last water change one of the patches came off revealing an open sore with some of the fungussy stuff remaining on the edges. The next day the same happened to the other patch. Figured/hoped she was on the mend but now a couple days later they have fungused over again. Am at the point where I feel the need to medicate. But what to use?

Water parameters are all good and constant. Temp of this tank is 78F. The fish swims, eats, and fights back as normal.


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post #2 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 04:54 PM
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Oh no! Yes, definitely is starting to get serious. Anytime you see fungus, this indicates bacteria has taken over the tissue.

Could try a treatment of daily water changes with metheleyne blue ( In hospital tank! Kills beneficial bacteria!) or use a product like Seachem Paraguard which has acriflavine and malachite green. You can also find malachite green and acriflavine as active ingredients in API Fungus Cure. You could do this for a couple days to see if you see any healing response. This may be enough since the fish appears to be strong despite wounds.

Or, could go straight to an antibiotic, Do you have any on hand?
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post #3 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 05:13 PM Thread Starter
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The only meds I currently have are general cure and IchX. Could do a hospital tank if that's best but think I would like to treat the whole tank. As a rule I shun antibiotics even for myself but see a couple of other very small spots on two other angels. A pretty small greyish area on the eye of the platinum that has otherwise healed and a spot on the big boy dark angel. Any further suggestions on what would be best for a whole tank antibiotic or other? Or other thoughts in general. Thanks so much for chiming in.


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post #4 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 05:30 PM
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Try the Ich X, it contains malachite green. See if this helps with healing. I would also do daily water changes of at least 25% while treating.

For antibiotics could use Seachem Neoplex in food or kanamycin ( active ingredient in Seachem Kanaplex) dosed in water column. Another economical option option is to get these meds through Jemco:
https://www.jehmco.com/html/medications.html


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post #5 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Ok, great. Am looking into any local options to treat sooner. Excellent link, though. I bookmarked straight away. Leaning toward whole tank antibiotic if available vs Ich X. May ask for your opinion yet again if there happens to be more than one local option. Thanks so much for all your help!


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post #6 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 06:15 PM
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Look for active ingredients. May not be a brand name, but if know active ingredients can use.

Look for:

neomycin
kanamycin
nitrofurazone ( this is active ingredient in API Furan 2)

Dont use:
erythromycin (kills beneficial bacteria if used in display tank).

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Originally Posted by schooldazed View Post
Ok, great. Am looking into any local options to treat sooner. Excellent link, though. I bookmarked straight away. Leaning toward whole tank antibiotic if available vs Ich X. May ask for your opinion yet again if there happens to be more than one local option. Thanks so much for all your help!
When you go to get a med today, let me know and I will keep a watch of posts on your thread to see if you have any questions .
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Last edited by Darkblade48; 05-24-2020 at 03:28 PM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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post #7 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 07:04 PM
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Wow @discusuv, you're so nice.

So sorry to see your sick fish. I would second everything DiscusLuv said. If it were my tank and my fish, and I wanted to treat the whole tank, I would take the filters off (leave a powerhead or something for circulation). If you don't have anything else to keep the circulation going remove the filter media and put that in your hospital/quarantine tank (needs to stay wet and circulated to keep BB alive). With the filters off you will need to do daily water changes.

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Originally Posted by schooldazed View Post
Ok, great. Am looking into any local options to treat sooner. Excellent link, though. I bookmarked straight away. Leaning toward whole tank antibiotic if available vs Ich X. May ask for your opinion yet again if there happens to be more than one local option. Thanks so much for all your help!
After removing the filter media I would treat with recommended doses. You can usually find API meds at petsmart for fast availability. If using API, I would use fungus cure + erythromycin or Furan-2. If you leave your filter in it will kill it as Discusluv said. These meds are pretty powerful reducing agents especially when used together so it isn't a bad idea to add another airpump/airstone when you treat. The extra air will help your fish.

Honestly the best option is to remove all the affected fish into a hospital tank (or bucket) so that you don't ruin your display tank and have to start over. Good luck, and I'm subscribed to watch for updates.

EDIT: If you decide to treat the whole tank and take off your filter DON'T FEED YOUR FISH. No need to produce the extra ammonia and they will be fine without.
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post #8 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 07:21 PM
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It is possible to remove the filter and just do water changes on display. I often dont recommend this to new people because they dont yet understand all the complex issues that it takes to make this work. Alot can go wrong. But, this is an option. However, daily water changes are absolutely necessary to keep organic load low. The higher the organic load, the less effective the uptake of the medication (organics offset antibiotic effectiveness). But, also, obviously, taking some biological bacteria away from system, increases the chance of ammonia or /and nitrite spike. A sick fish is even more vulnerable to this occuring at lower levels.

The kanamycin, neomyacin, and nitrofurazone ( can kill or set-back certain plants temporarily) are safe for bio-filter. Erythromycin- no.

It is always best to treat in hospital tank when you can. My hospital tanks are not pre-cycled because I want them sterile. I set it up as needed. Through daily water changes I ensure optimum uptake of meds and no chance of ammonia/nitrite toxicity.
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post #9 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-22-2020, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
When you go to get a med today, let me know and I will keep a watch of posts on your thread to see if you have any questions .

My local options are crummy/non-existent. Have ordered Kanaplex to arrive by Monday. Memorial Day so we'll see. That will actually allow for a regularly scheduled water change right before and two or three treatments in between. She still looks better than she did last Monday so fingers crossed these next coupla days will be okay. Will keep you appraised via this thread. Thanks again.


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Wow @discusuv, you're so nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
It is possible to remove the filter and just do water changes on display. I often dont recommend this to new people because they dont yet understand all the complex issues that it takes to make this work. Alot can go wrong. But, this is an option. However, daily water changes are absolutely necessary to keep organic load low. The higher the organic load, the less effective the uptake of the medication (organics offset antibiotic effectiveness). But, also, obviously, taking some biological bacteria away from system, increases the chance of ammonia or /and nitrite spike. A sick fish is even more vulnerable to this occuring at lower levels.

The kanamycin, neomyacin, and nitrofurazone ( can kill or set-back certain plants temporarily) are safe for bio-filter. Erythromycin- no.

It is always best to treat in hospital tank when you can. My hospital tanks are not pre-cycled because I want them sterile. I set it up as needed. Through daily water changes I ensure optimum uptake of meds and no chance of ammonia/nitrite toxicity.
Just saw this. Will have to think on this while waiting for the kanamycin to form my gameplan. Will definitely do a most thorough maintenance including filters and gravel vac to reduce organics amap. Coincidentally, just checked my Cerges reactor and hoses and realized they have been going for a year without cleaning so add those to the list. Outstanding advice as always.

So sorry to see your sick fish. I would second everything DiscusLuv said. If it were my tank and my fish, and I wanted to treat the whole tank, I would take the filters off (leave a powerhead or something for circulation). If you don't have anything else to keep the circulation going remove the filter media and put that in your hospital/quarantine tank (needs to stay wet and circulated to keep BB alive). With the filters off you will need to do daily water changes.



After removing the filter media I would treat with recommended doses. You can usually find API meds at petsmart for fast availability. If using API, I would use fungus cure + erythromycin or Furan-2. If you leave your filter in it will kill it as Discusluv said. These meds are pretty powerful reducing agents especially when used together so it isn't a bad idea to add another airpump/airstone when you treat. The extra air will help your fish.

Honestly the best option is to remove all the affected fish into a hospital tank (or bucket) so that you don't ruin your display tank and have to start over. Good luck, and I'm subscribed to watch for updates.

EDIT: If you decide to treat the whole tank and take off your filter DON'T FEED YOUR FISH. No need to produce the extra ammonia and they will be fine without.

Well hey there HAH. Thanks for the advice. Will definitely heed the air circulation and feeding warnings. Since I fear several fish have already been affected/infected think treating the whole tank may be best. Could be a mistake but if the fish survive, can always regrow plants and do lots of water changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
It is possible to remove the filter and just do water changes on display. I often dont recommend this to new people because they dont yet understand all the complex issues that it takes to make this work. Alot can go wrong. But, this is an option. However, daily water changes are absolutely necessary to keep organic load low. The higher the organic load, the less effective the uptake of the medication (organics offset antibiotic effectiveness). But, also, obviously, taking some biological bacteria away from system, increases the chance of ammonia or /and nitrite spike. A sick fish is even more vulnerable to this occuring at lower levels.

The kanamycin, neomyacin, and nitrofurazone ( can kill or set-back certain plants temporarily) are safe for bio-filter. Erythromycin- no.

It is always best to treat in hospital tank when you can. My hospital tanks are not pre-cycled because I want them sterile. I set it up as needed. Through daily water changes I ensure optimum uptake of meds and no chance of ammonia/nitrite toxicity.
Just missed this - posts crossed in the interwebs. I will be giving this a great deal of thought to come up with the full gameplan while waiting for the kanamycin. Will definitely at least do a most thorough maintenance before. Filters and gravel vaccing. And coincidentally just checked my Cerges reactor and tubing. Realized have never cleaned those so add those to the list. Most excellent advice as always.
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Last edited by schooldazed; 05-22-2020 at 07:42 PM. Reason: added quote and response
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post #10 of 21 (permalink) Old 05-24-2020, 03:07 AM
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Ouch that looks painful good luck with meds
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post #11 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-02-2020, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Ok - finished a week of treatments (3) as directed with the Kanaplex. Yesterday did a big water change and return of bio-media which had been soaking in tank water over an airstone.. Checked throughout treatment and the water quality remained fine. First thought there was some improvement but then the fungus progressed. Will need to take further action for sure if this fish is to be saved. Still seemed to eat normally this morning but ever increasingly painful to look at. My hospital tank is twenty four hours away from being ready. Currently a green water soupy mess that I'll clean tonight and then the water should be to temperature in the morning.

Am wondering if I should continue with the Kanaplex? Perhaps increase the dosage some? Switch to a different antibiotic? Or maybe something more specific to the fungus? The Kanaplex had no noticeable ill effects on any of the fish. Also, though the label said it would kill inverts, the snails I couldn't rescue before starting appear to be fine. Wonder if this batch was just weak. Whatch'all think?


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post #12 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-02-2020, 10:10 PM
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Ok - finished a week of treatments (3) as directed with the Kanaplex. Yesterday did a big water change and return of bio-media which had been soaking in tank water over an airstone.. Checked throughout treatment and the water quality remained fine. First thought there was some improvement but then the fungus progressed. Will need to take further action for sure if this fish is to be saved. Still seemed to eat normally this morning but ever increasingly painful to look at. My hospital tank is twenty four hours away from being ready. Currently a green water soupy mess that I'll clean tonight and then the water should be to temperature in the morning.

Am wondering if I should continue with the Kanaplex? Perhaps increase the dosage some? Switch to a different antibiotic? Or maybe something more specific to the fungus? The Kanaplex had no noticeable ill effects on any of the fish. Also, though the label said it would kill inverts, the snails I couldn't rescue before starting appear to be fine. Wonder if this batch was just weak. Whatch'all think?
Yes, use nitrofurazone ( active ingredient in API Furan 2. This med is commonly at Petco and Petsmart)) with the kanaplex. These meds work together synergistically and are often recommended for treatment of Columnaris. I doubt that the fish has columnaris, but it has a very bad external infection that the nitrofurazone may shut down. If you have the kanaplex to do another dose, do so with the Furan 2. Nitrofurazone is harsh on plants, however. Better to do in a hospital tank.
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post #13 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, use nitrofurazone ( active ingredient in API Furan 2. This med is commonly at Petco and Petsmart)) with the kanaplex. These meds work together synergistically and are often recommended for treatment of Columnaris. I doubt that the fish has columnaris, but it has a very bad external infection that the nitrofurazone may shut down. If you have the kanaplex to do another dose, do so with the Furan 2. Nitrofurazone is harsh on plants, however. Better to do in a hospital tank.

Well we have no real LFS in my area only Petco, Petsmart, PetSuppliesPlus, and PetSupermarket. None had the Fluran 2; the scurge of the big box store. Had to resort to Amazon which I guess is just as bad/the next evolutionary retail victor. Due to be delivered tomorrow which really puts first treatment on Friday. I do have plenty of the Kanaplex to treat the twenty gallon hospital. I could give a dose of the Kanaplex today and start both together on Friday if that's better? Or give the fish the next two days to de-stress after the move? Or wait to move the fish until I have both meds so the inevitable stress from moving the fish can at least meet with medication straight away? So many questions. Probably overthinking as is my norm. Now who's stressed. Thanks for all your help, Amy.


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post #14 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 02:53 PM
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Well we have no real LFS in my area only Petco, Petsmart, PetSuppliesPlus, and PetSupermarket. None had the Fluran 2; the scurge of the big box store. Had to resort to Amazon which I guess is just as bad/the next evolutionary retail victor. Due to be delivered tomorrow which really puts first treatment on Friday. I do have plenty of the Kanaplex to treat the twenty gallon hospital. I could give a dose of the Kanaplex today and start both together on Friday if that's better? Or give the fish the next two days to de-stress after the move? Or wait to move the fish until I have both meds so the inevitable stress from moving the fish can at least meet with medication straight away? So many questions. Probably overthinking as is my norm. Now who's stressed. Thanks for all your help, Amy.
I dont know. Its hard for me to know not seeing the fish what the right thing is to do here.

When fish are eating it is the best sign that they are still strong and fighting an infection. But, if they are eating -yet, not strong enough to swim as usual, resting on bottom of tank, or if wound shows redness or streaking--- need to continue treating. There is something to giving the fish a break because the meds already given are still in blood-stream- but, usually that makes sense only when the fish is not worsening.


So, I would say that if the fish shows signs of worsening, the best thing would be to move to hospital tank and continue next round of treatment with Kanaplex. Then, when get the Furan 2, start that as well. Make sure to change water before dosing as much as possible to lower organics in water column so meds at max effectiveness.

The hospital tank has air stone doesnt it? Need that while medicating.
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post #15 of 21 (permalink) Old 06-03-2020, 03:16 PM
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Ok - finished a week of treatments (3) as directed with the Kanaplex. Yesterday did a big water change and return of bio-media which had been soaking in tank water over an airstone.. Checked throughout treatment and the water quality remained fine. First thought there was some improvement but then the fungus progressed. Will need to take further action for sure if this fish is to be saved. Still seemed to eat normally this morning but ever increasingly painful to look at. My hospital tank is twenty four hours away from being ready. Currently a green water soupy mess that I'll clean tonight and then the water should be to temperature in the morning.

Am wondering if I should continue with the Kanaplex? Perhaps increase the dosage some? Switch to a different antibiotic? Or maybe something more specific to the fungus? The Kanaplex had no noticeable ill effects on any of the fish. Also, though the label said it would kill inverts, the snails I couldn't rescue before starting appear to be fine. Wonder if this batch was just weak. Whatch'all think?
Some other thoughts.



*Turn down temperature in tank a few degrees less than normal. this slows down spread of bacteria.

*If given a choice ( and have the time) it is always better to get meds from either Jehmco or Angels Plus because they offer 100% powders of whatever medication buy, Seachem or API brands do use less of active ingredient. Not sure of exact concentration, but know that they add other non-active ingredients to their medications. So, this is a valid consideration. But, still, I would not double ( or add more) meds because you dont know for sure what the concentration of med is to safely dose.

*I have never had an issue using kanamycin with inverts. The Furan 2 can be harsher- but, have never tried it with inverts. I know it will set back plants.
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