Tome of the Troublesome 10 Gal Planted Tank - Fin Rot Edition - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 02:44 AM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Tome of the Troublesome 10 Gal Planted Tank - Fin Rot Edition

I set up my very first planted tank (low tech) on March 6. Itís a Tetra 10 gal with a 50 watt heater and an Aqueon QuietFlo 10 hang-on-back filter. I chucked the carbon inserts in favor of filter sponge and bio rings which utilized biomedia from my established tank and I added a pre-filter sponge. The aforementioned established tank (5 gal) held one betta fish, acrylic substrate, silk plants, fake everything. There wasnít anything ďlivingĒ, like a plant, in it. It also had a heater (25 watt) and a small hang-on-back filter running carbon filtering. Betta fish was in there for 5 months, healthy as can be, beautiful fins, weekly water changes/vacuuming. All was perfect until I decided to give him what I thought was a better home.

When I started the 10 gal, even though I used biomedia from the established tank, I followed the protocol for a fishless cycle using food, the ammonia and nitrites spiked and fell after 2 weeks I even purchased 6 danios in the middle of week three to put in the tank to help further establish it before putting my precious betta in the new tank. On March 22, I put the betta fish in. After one night, the very next morning, his fins looked torn, tattered and ragged. I mean, literally he went from perfect to a mess. I assumed that the danios were nipping him, so after another week I returned the danios to the LFS and betta is now in the planted tank alone like he was in his former tank.

The fins have not improved from March. I assumed this had turned into bacterial fin rot, so I put him through two rounds of Kanaplex and Jungle Fungus (on the chance it was fungal) in April. I have since amassed every kind of medication and treatment for the fish and the tank water, but before I transfer the fish to a hospital tank and strip the 10 gal tank down and salvage my plants and start all over, I thought I would pause and get other opinions on this. Of course, I have made mistakes as I am learning. But I feel like I fall out of the realm of simple water quality shaming as most videos and posts on the subject of fin rot resort to. I did weekly water changes on the 5 gal tank. When this problem appeared in the 10 gal I increased the water changes to every three days. Iíve always thoroughly rinsed/cleaned the filter in tank water on a monthly basis. Iíve tinkered with pH, went back to leaving it alone. Put temperature up, then back down, then up again. All the while, my water parameters have been perfect, Iíve tested Phosphates because of algae which was never really that bad. Installed phosphate filter pads to help with that. Iíve purchased more plants and moss to pad some hard surfaces, Iíve removed stuff that appeared sharp. Iíve tested KH and GH. (All parameters listed below.) Iím sure some of the stuff Iíve done in my attempts to get a handle on this have only contributed to the problem so thatís why I am stopping and asking others. I donít want to do anymore that doesnít help him.

One thing when I do restart this 10 gal from scratch, I feel the substrate (Carib Sea Eco Complete) is too abrasive for a betta fish. Heís always been sort of a ďloungingĒ fish. He loves his floating log, his betta hammock, the substrate, leaves. As long as I have had him, he likes to rest everywhere. Therefore when I restart this tank, I am only going to use rhizome plants attached to hardscape placed over soft sand. Nothing rooted and nothing I canít vacuum. And nothing volcanic and SHARP. I have since installed porch screen material covered with java moss in places covering the sharp substrate in an attempt to carpet things in there and make it soft for him. But now I canít easily vacuum the gravel so that canít be good for getting rid of this pathogen. So I have my suspicions on what is contributing to this, but Iím going to stop and ponder this with your help.

Any advice on next steps is appreciated, including on what to treat him with in his Hospital. Iíd like to try salt for starters, but I keep reading that it doesnít work on advanced cases. I would say heís got a moderate case, but it has gone on for a long time. Iíd also love thoughts on how to restart this troublesome 10 gallon so that it doesnít injure or sicken my fish. And if anything jumps out at you regarding my water parameters, Iíd love to know that.

Thank you! Iíll try to answer any questions as they come up.

Parameters:
Temp: 80 (he was always 78 in the 5 gal)
pH (natural from the tap): 7.2 to 7.6
KH: 35.8
GH: 53.7
Ammonia: 0
Nitrites: 0
Nitrates: <5.0
Phosphates: 0.25 (with phosphate removing filter sponge)

Plants:
Java Fern
Java Moss
Anubias Barteri
Anubias Nana Petite
Anubias Congensis
Luffy balls

Chems/Ferts/Other:
Seachem Prime (conditioner)
Seachem Stability (bacteria refresh)
Seachem Flourish Advance (weekly)
Seachem Acid Buffer (Iíve stopped this, though it really does work well)
IAL

Hardscape:
Dragon stone
Round pebbles to anchor plants
Floating betta log

Airstone was used when administering medications.

I feel I should also list what I have on hand, but havenít tried. I apologize for this already lengthy post, but at least this list shows how serious I am at becoming a better water/plant farmer as well as a fish keeper. (I really want my fish to get better.)

Tetra Lifeguard (water treatment)
Aquatronics Res-Q (Iíd heard good things about it)
BettaFix (yeah, I know. Donít bother)
Bettamax (Basically the same as Jungle Fungus Clear)
Neoplex
Focus and Garlic Guard (in case we need to go oral)
Maracyn 2 (arriving from Amazon on Tuesday!)

Fish:
Male halfmoon betta

Food (one of the below choices twice daily):
Omega One Veggie Mini Pellets
Fluval Bug Bites Ė Betta formula
Tetra BettaMin 3-in-1 Select-A-Food
Hikari Frozen Blood Worms (as a treat)

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 02:56 AM
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Is this a picture of the Betta now?


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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 03:14 AM
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I honestly dont think its the substrate. I had mine on that stuff for a while then switched to commercial sand (like PFS). The Carib sea didnt seem to cause any issues besides collecting a ton of stuff and hard to vac when you have a bunch of plants.

My betta is the same type and color. When I first got him he had a fin rot episode and I treated with salt and microbe lift Artemiss. Cant say which fixed him and cant say I recommend the microbe lift as I dont know exactly whats in it but everything worked to grow his fins back. Had to do it again after a female betta tore off most of his fins over a weekend. Have a feeling it was more the salt then anything but who knows.

Thats my experience.
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Last edited by Quint; 05-15-2020 at 04:46 AM. Reason: info
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 04:37 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, this is him now. Itís hard to see, but his fins have curly raggedy bits. Some parts look like they are ready to fall off. And his dorsal fin has a shredded part like a string.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
I honestly dont think its the substrate. I had mine on that stuff for a while then switched to commercial sand (like PFS). Didnt seem to cause any issues besides collecting a ton of stuff and hard to vac when you have a bunch of plants.

My betta is the same type and color. When I first got him he had a fin rot episode and I treated with salt and microbe lift Artemiss. Cant say which fixed him and cant say I recommend the microbe lift as I dont know exactly whats in it but everything worked to grow his fins back. Had to do it again after a female betta tore off most of his fins over a weekend. Have a feeling it was more the salt then anything but who knows.

Thats my experience.
I have never heard of this product and it sounds interesting. Do you think it worth a one time shot to treat him in the planted tank before trying it in the Hospital tank? I know salt will kill my plants.

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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
Is this a picture of the Betta now?
Yes, thatís him this evening. Heís got some curly ragged threads that look like they will fall off him any minute now. And his dorsal fin has this ridiculous looking thread. Poor guy looks like an anglerfish. All he needs is the lamp on the end of that stalk.

Last edited by Darkblade48; 05-15-2020 at 05:48 PM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 01:16 PM
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Glad you posted this, mine has the same problem and hopefully we can figure this out:





My tank also has eco-complete, but I have to agree with Quint that it's probably not the substrate. The fins on mine looked fine for the first 3-4 weeks in the tank and he would lounge/swim under leaves near the bottom without tearing his fins, otos and other critters don't seem to mind the sharpness either. I'm still trying to figure it out too - the tank reads 0/0/0 after 4 months and has a lot of healthy new plant growth, but I'm wondering if it might be water quality after all. I had been doing 25% changes 2x a week but let most of the substrate go a while between gravel vacs (thinking it was in the best interest of the plants), and let Salvinia take over the top which blocked out a lot of light and was starting to brown some hornwort in the far back corners of the tank.

There's a good recent thread on dirty water here https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...rty-water.html and I suspect the tank may have had high DOCs and an environment that breeds bacteria well even though the water looks clear and measures clean (possibly due to the regular water changes and lack of disturbing the gunky bottom). I just tried a more thorough cleaning of the tank without vaccuming too deep near roots, with a 50% water change and removed any decaying plants and about half the salvinia - planning to see how this goes for the next week or so and then start dosing kanaplex if there's no improvement. I wouldn't do anything as drastic as tearing down your tank just yet, it looks great! For what it's worth, no other fish in my tank seem to have any issues with fin rot, just the betta. I haven't ruled out that the HOB filter intake is just tearing them as I don't have a mesh screen around it yet, I lowered the flow on it a few days ago and haven't seen new damage since then. Let us know how it goes in your tank, really curious here.
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by LadyBones View Post
I have never heard of this product and it sounds interesting. Do you think it worth a one time shot to treat him in the planted tank before trying it in the Hospital tank? I know salt will kill my plants.
Not sure, I would get advice from @Discusluv if possible as she is really good with medications. The stuff I used is suppose to be some natural mix of stuff but they dont list ingredients so no one knows what it is. I only used it because I needed something, had just gotten back into fish after probably 20 years, and happened to have swung by petco to grab something.

As far as the salt goes I used about half of what people recommend for salt baths if I remember correctly. It didnt cause any issues with the plants I had at the time but its been a while so dont recall all the plants I had.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 03:57 PM
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More questions:
Is the fish eating?
Does the fish have issues with swimming: lethargic or swim-bladder issues?
Any white feces?

Because the fin damage was noticed directly after putting in danios, this was ( Im 95% sure) the initial cause.
Being that the initial cause was not a pathogen, I see no reason to tear the tank down. It is common that a fish get secondary bacteria where damage is done on fins, scales, etc...
Additionally, the eco-complete is not why the tail has began to erode, I see no reason to take it out either. If the fish spent most of its time on the substarte, then i would say that it is a remote possibility.
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 06:16 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisg View Post
There's a good recent thread on dirty water here https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...rty-water.html and I suspect the tank may have had high DOCs and an environment that breeds bacteria well even though the water looks clear and measures clean (possibly due to the regular water changes and lack of disturbing the gunky bottom). I just tried a more thorough cleaning of the tank without vaccuming too deep near roots, with a 50% water change and removed any decaying plants and about half the salvinia - planning to see how this goes for the next week or so and then start dosing kanaplex if there's no improvement. I wouldn't do anything as drastic as tearing down your tank just yet, it looks great! For what it's worth, no other fish in my tank seem to have any issues with fin rot, just the betta. I haven't ruled out that the HOB filter intake is just tearing them as I don't have a mesh screen around it yet, I lowered the flow on it a few days ago and haven't seen new damage since then. Let us know how it goes in your tank, really curious here.
Yes! This is exactly along the lines of my suspicions! Since Iíve gone through and anchored most of my java ferns, java moss and Anubias to rocks, Iím thinking of removing plants, pulling up the screens with java moss and vacuuming that substrate a lot better. Iím no longer using root tabs because nothing is rooted, only doing ferts in the water column.

Your tank is stunning! Iíd love to know more how your carpet is going so well (Monte Carlo?), especially with the floating plants. Monte Carlo was my first and only casualty

Anyway, back to our fish. Iíd rather dose his current tank and not move him at all. But as I mentioned, two rounds of kanaplex and Jungle Fungus cure in this tank did nothing. Itís worth a shot though In your case (thatís an inexperienced opinion of course) because my research says it has a high success rate. Iím just afraid to do it again because I donít want him to become antibiotic resistant. Iím also glad you popped on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
More questions:
Is the fish eating?
Does the fish have issues with swimming: lethargic or swim-bladder issues?
Any white feces?

Because the fin damage was noticed directly after putting in danios, this was ( Im 95% sure) the initial cause.
Being that the initial cause was not a pathogen, I see no reason to tear the tank down. It is common that a fish get secondary bacteria where damage is done on fins, scales, etc...
Additionally, the eco-complete is not why the tail has began to erode, I see no reason to take it out either. If the fish spent most of its time on the substarte, then i would say that it is a remote possibility.
Yes, he still has his spectacular appetite. Heís very active (during his active phases, when heís not sleeping). He seems to love the five gallons of extra space and loves to swim the distance with impressive speed. Except for his fins, he behaves completely normal. I have never seen his feces, at any time while having him. I had bettas many years ago and I canít remember whether or not Iíd ever seen their poop, but I also grew up with gouramis and remember seeing poop all the time. I assume they are normal as he has no bloat or swim bladder issues.

I think it was the danios too. Iím sure he was also very stressed going to a new tank and with other fish, where he had none before.

My preference would be to not tear this tank down, treat it and the fish in it. I was so disappointed when the two Kanaplex treatments didnít work.

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quint View Post
As far as the salt goes I used about half of what people recommend for salt baths if I remember correctly. It didnt cause any issues with the plants I had at the time but its been a while so dont recall all the plants I had.
I actually had another post a while back asking about salt and plants and I donít think it was ever answered. I know *some* plants can tolerate *some* salt. I always hate that money becomes a factor in these situations, but I know we all have a ton of it invested in our plants. If there was a dose I could try on this betta fish in his current home, Iíd be willing to try it. He has had one experience with salt in his old ďfakeĒ home (no plants). A pet sitter over fed him. When I came home, it was clear he was not himself. I dosed his tank according to the instructions and WOW, he perked right up. It really impressed me as a medicine.

My apologies to the Mod here. I am attempting to answer posts using the ďquoteĒ and it keeps posting the second reply as a ďbumpĒ in the previous reply. Iím using the mobile version on an iPad.

Last edited by Darkblade48; 05-16-2020 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Please use the edit function for back to back posts to keep threads cleaner
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-15-2020, 07:05 PM
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It is good that the fish is acting otherwise healthy, extremely good. Eating is best indicator of health.
It sounds like a good plan to get the substrate cleaned up. Make sure to account for any possible recycling issues from a too vigorous cleaning, this can be counteracted by doing at least 25% water changes for the first few days after a vigorous cleaning.

Antibiotics dosed into the water column can lose their effectiveness in cases where high organic compounds exist. This may be an issue due to need to clean up substrate. But, in general, feeding antibiotics in feed to fish is far more effective than dosing in water column- even in a clean tank.

Not sure when you ended your last treatment round; but, if it is less than 7 days I would only recommend a course of salt therapy. Do this for 7 days and see where you are as far as fin growth. If after 7 days there is no signs of improvement I would use the Neomycin with Focus in food. Either frozen or flake is best. The directions for this should be on the back of the Focus bottle. Do this for 7 days. Then wait for at least 7 days. Re-accessing where you are.

I would also start adding a low dose of non-iodized salt on a regular basis in Betta's aquarium. Salt has been found to have multiple long-term benefits for Bettas. Ill attach an article that provides a better explanation of why this is so.

https://www.ibcbettas.org/aquarium-s...ntative-v-2-0/
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-16-2020, 12:36 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
It is good that the fish is acting otherwise healthy, extremely good. Eating is best indicator of health.
It sounds like a good plan to get the substrate cleaned up. Make sure to account for any possible recycling issues from a too vigorous cleaning, this can be counteracted by doing at least 25% water changes for the first few days after a vigorous cleaning.

Antibiotics dosed into the water column can lose their effectiveness in cases where high organic compounds exist. This may be an issue due to need to clean up substrate. But, in general, feeding antibiotics in feed to fish is far more effective than dosing in water column- even in a clean tank.

Not sure when you ended your last treatment round; but, if it is less than 7 days I would only recommend a course of salt therapy. Do this for 7 days and see where you are as far as fin growth. If after 7 days there is no signs of improvement I would use the Neomycin with Focus in food. Either frozen or flake is best. The directions for this should be on the back of the Focus bottle. Do this for 7 days. Then wait for at least 7 days. Re-accessing where you are.

I would also start adding a low dose of non-iodized salt on a regular basis in Betta's aquarium. Salt has been found to have multiple long-term benefits for Bettas. Ill attach an article that provides a better explanation of why this is so.

https://www.ibcbettas.org/aquarium-s...ntative-v-2-0/
This is so extremely helpful and I am glad you were able to put together a treatment plan from my list of on-hand medications so I can begin this weekend. So just to confirm. Move him to his Hospital for treatment (His last dose of Kanaplex was on May 5th so Iím definitely outside that 7 day window.) Clean up substrate/tend to the recycling aftermath. And then put him back in after 14 days minimum? Once heís returned, ostensibly better, then start his low-dose salt. Let me know if I have something wrong here.

Oh! Iím so grateful. It feels good to be out of paralysis mode with at least a plan to try.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-16-2020, 01:16 AM
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This is so extremely helpful and I am glad you were able to put together a treatment plan from my list of on-hand medications so I can begin this weekend. So just to confirm. Move him to his Hospital for treatment (His last dose of Kanaplex was on May 5th so Iím definitely outside that 7 day window.) Clean up substrate/tend to the recycling aftermath. And then put him back in after 14 days minimum? Once heís returned, ostensibly better, then start his low-dose salt. Let me know if I have something wrong here.

Oh! Iím so grateful. It feels good to be out of paralysis mode with at least a plan to try.
Sounds like a plan.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-16-2020, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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@Discusluv if youíre still around, I have a question.

Betta fish ate the Neoplex/Focus/Garlic laced food. He loved it. I did it first as an experiment in his 10 gal tank. I plan on moving him over to the Hospital either tonight or tomorrow. That will be his old 5 gal with plastic ornaments which is up an running with some bio media from the 10 gal. My question is, as long as he is eating the medicated food readily, can I do a therapeutic dose of salt in the hospital at the same time? Or is that too much, altogether? Thank you.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-16-2020, 11:30 PM
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So, obviously doesn't work if you are medicating the tank, but maybe adding more chemical filtration to pull out any organics would be of help. Activated carbon or or maybe purigen in your HOB? You had said you had pulled that out to give more surface area for bacteria to establish themselves.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-16-2020, 11:43 PM
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@Discusluv if youíre still around, I have a question.

Betta fish ate the Neoplex/Focus/Garlic laced food. He loved it. I did it first as an experiment in his 10 gal tank. I plan on moving him over to the Hospital either tonight or tomorrow. That will be his old 5 gal with plastic ornaments which is up an running with some bio media from the 10 gal. My question is, as long as he is eating the medicated food readily, can I do a therapeutic dose of salt in the hospital at the same time? Or is that too much, altogether? Thank you.
Yes, you can do both. Salt helps with osmoregulation and decreases stress. Like I said earlier ( and as that article outlines that I attached), Bettas really respond to the addition of salt in aquarium.

I would do just a tsp in 5 gallon while medicating. You dont need alot. Add back what take out with water changes.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-16-2020, 11:56 PM Thread Starter
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So, obviously doesn't work if you are medicating the tank, but maybe adding more chemical filtration to pull out any organics would be of help. Activated carbon or or maybe purigen in your HOB? You had said you had pulled that out to give more surface area for bacteria to establish themselves.
Itís interesting that you mention this. When he was in his 5 gal with fake decor, his filter had carbon cartridges along with the mechanical filtration (sponge, rings) and he was the picture of health. I know things are more complicated generally, but I do still have the carbon for the Aqueon on the 10 gal and I might just try this when heís out of treatment and back in his home. Thanks!
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