Reuse Quarantine Tank - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 01:10 AM Thread Starter
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Reuse Quarantine Tank

I purchase some neon tetra and place them in quarantine for 4 weeks. I treated with Aquarium Co-Op trio of meds and of the 25, I lost 5. Today I moved the rest to my main display tank and they are the first tenants.

I'll be getting another batch of neon tetra and was wondering can I use the same quarantine tank as is or do I need to disinfect it and start over again? I planned on doing at least a 50% water change in the QT (10g) and waiting a week before I get the next batch.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 03:58 AM
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What is Aquarium Co'Ops trio of meds (active ingredients) and what are they supposed to prevent?

What symptoms did the neons have before death?
How long of time elapsed between when put fish in tank and death?
Was the quarantine tank cycled?


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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 04:17 AM
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 06:40 AM Thread Starter
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The neons did not have any symptoms before death. They all were newly purchased and put in quarantine for observation.

All of the ones that passed happened within the first week.

Both the DT and QT where fully cycle. The DT has remained cycle as I added ammonia around every 5 days after the cycle was complete. The ammonia read 0 within 24hrs.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 12:11 PM
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Prophylactically treating fish with a trio of drugs is a very different animal than placing fish in a quarantine tank for observation and treatment for symptoms observed. Using this trio of drugs, you are assuming that fish have x, y, and z. Sad thing is that most of the time aquarists have no idea what the active ingredients in these drugs are or what x,y,z is that they are treating.
Sure, Ive proactively treated fish with ONE drug at a time in a quarantine tank depending on source ( domestic farm raised fish, local breeder, wild caught) or particular needs of different species ( discus and angelfish are prone to spironucleus so treat with metronidazole prophylactically). Or, for instance, Ive de-wormed my fish in quarantine with praziquantel or flubendazole (especially if wild fish) or used a malachite green blend like Paraguard for slightly tattered fins, abrasions, lifted scales, etc. for its anti-bacterial properties.

The point is: I use these drugs strategically depending on source of fish and types of diseases each fish is prone to. This Co-Op trio is anything but strategic- is haphazardly throwing a bomb at a fish and hoping it hits something.

What makes a neon tetra a fish that many have difficulty acclimating to the aquarium: neon tetra disease. And, the thing is, none of the active ingredients in this trio of meds will cure this condition. So, the better treatment would be to not treat with these drugs at all and look at the fish carefully before buying for any symptoms of disease.

So, back to the quarantine tank, because there were no symptoms of disease there is no reason to sterilize the tank before adding new inhabitants. It is very possible that the stress of transportation and acclimation on top of the mixture of drugs could have been too much for the fish.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 02:24 PM
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Yeah Aquarium coop uses this trio because he is a store owner who gets shipments from multiple locations nearly everyday. The cost of him losing his entire stock through a pathogen release is worth more than the cost of losig some fish in quarantine with over-aggressive medication. He does claim that this trio is safe for use together and recommends people use it. While I agree that the drugs are safe to use together (no unknown interactions, they dont counter each other out, etc.) as Discuslover pointed out, it is inherently stressful to medicate fish. Use that information how you will, and maybe it is still worth it to you to treat prophylactically if you intend on getting multiple batches of neons from multiple sources. Personally I don't medicate fish in quarantine unless I see obvious symptoms of illness.

As to your original question: I would do a 100% water change and rinse out the tank, maybe give the walls a quick scrub but you should be able to keep the same cycled filter in there. Aquarium coop uses their quarantine tanks in succession and don't remove the gravel or filters between batches of fish from what ive seen of their unboxing videos. Especially if you use a strong dewormer, I don't think any eggs or cysts or parasites would still be lurking in there in any damaging numbers (parasites are always present in water, its just a matter of degree).
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 04:44 PM
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@SwampGirl

This guy is a retailer, lets not forget that; --- it is profitable business for him to sell this medication combo together as opposed to giving you a set of tools to ensure you dont bring in pathogens to your tank in the first place. How people buy into this is beyond me ( and agree as they are doing it that there are no risks --"no known interactions, they dont counter each other, out etc...). Well, I actually have a good guess- because he can. Most people have no idea what these drugs do or why- only that someone is telling them there is no downside. Which is entirely untrue.


Edit: Did a quick google search and easily found contradiction between erythromycin and metronidazole:

*Do not mix with Metronidazole as it can increase metronidazole activity, especially in intestinal tract to dangerous levels


http://www.americanaquariumproducts....l#erythromycin




Also, parasites are always present in a tank?? Can you elaborate on that?



Last edited by Discusluv; 10-21-2019 at 05:16 PM. Reason: more info
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
This guy is a retailer, lets not forget that; --- it is profitable business for him to sell this medication combo together as opposed to giving you a set of tools to ensure you dont bring in pathogens to your tank in the first place. How people buy into this is beyond me ( and agree as they are doing it that there are no risks --"no known interactions, they dont counter each other, out etc...). Well, I actually have a good guess- because he can. Most people have no idea what these drugs do or why- only that someone is telling them there is no downside. Which is entirely untrue.

You're definitely being overly harsh/judgmental. I have seen his channel and he recommends treating sick fish with salt if you can before trying to use real meds. But in general he focuses on community planted aquariums and on offering products that are "easy" and would be more for novice hobbyists. So offering three meds that will cure most diseases, are plant safe, and can be safely used together... well I don't see why you would be so critical of that unless you're just not thinking of it from a novice standpoint.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDukeAnumber1 View Post
You're definitely being overly harsh/judgmental. I have seen his channel and he recommends treating sick fish with salt if you can before trying to use real meds. But in general he focuses on community planted aquariums and on offering products that are "easy" and would be more for novice hobbyists. So offering three meds that will cure most diseases, are plant safe, and can be safely used together... well I don't see why you would be so critical of that unless you're just not thinking of it from a novice standpoint.
I know- sigh- the truth is often harsh and sounds so mean. Sorry, no way around that. But, the good news is that we can all learn what we need to know with a bit of reading or a good, basic manual of fish health ( for novices). These resources will inform a new aquarist of the proper set-up of a quarantine tank, what to look for while fish are in quarantine, and when such things as deworming, antibacterials, or anti-biotics are in order.
For instance, one would learn that erythromycin is primarily for gram + bacteria and has, actually, very little effectiveness against gram - bacteria ( which is what we deal with 98% of time in the aquarium). So why recommend erythromycin when there are other drugs far more effective at dealing with the gram negative bacteria we do frequently face in the aquarium. Namely, columnaris. Erythromycin would be the last drug any educated aquarist would recommend for this condition. So, what is he recommending erythromycin for?

Most reputable resources on fish health will tell you to never just indiscriminately medicate without knowing some information: source of fish, identification of symptoms, and/or the likelihood of pathogen to affect species.

Cory is telling the newcomer that none of these things matter- just medicate regardless of context.



It isn't true that this cocktail will cure "most diseases."

Also, it has been demonstrated that there are warnings of using metronidazole and erythromycin together.

I would find the med trio makes it "easier for the novice" debatable. It could just be the appearance of ease that the consumer is getting by a promise by a retailer that they will do all the thinking for them.


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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 09:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
@SwampGirl

This guy is a retailer, lets not forget that; --- it is profitable business for him to sell this medication combo together as opposed to giving you a set of tools to ensure you dont bring in pathogens to your tank in the first place. How people buy into this is beyond me ( and agree as they are doing it that there are no risks --"no known interactions, they dont counter each other, out etc...). Well, I actually have a good guess- because he can. Most people have no idea what these drugs do or why- only that someone is telling them there is no downside. Which is entirely untrue.


Edit: Did a quick google search and easily found contradiction between erythromycin and metronidazole:

*Do not mix with Metronidazole as it can increase metronidazole activity, especially in intestinal tract to dangerous levels


http://www.americanaquariumproducts....l#erythromycin




Also, parasites are always present in a tank?? Can you elaborate on that?
While I agree that Aquarium coop is a business and all statements made on their videos should be seen as a sales pitch, I disagree that he encourages people to use this when it's not needed. I think people watch his videos and what to do things like he does even though he has nowhere near the needs of a home hobbyist. In his videos he definitely doesn't encourage overmedication and I think his recommendation is based on actual experience using that combination of medication on thousands of fish over years of business. If you watch their videos it's clear they actually use this combo so I do think they know that it is safe more than anyone else (besides someone who handles even more fish but I sure dont!)
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by SwampGirl View Post
While I agree that Aquarium coop is a business and all statements made on their videos should be seen as a sales pitch, I disagree that he encourages people to use this when it's not needed. I think people watch his videos and what to do things like he does even though he has nowhere near the needs of a home hobbyist. In his videos he definitely doesn't encourage overmedication and I think his recommendation is based on actual experience using that combination of medication on thousands of fish over years of business. If you watch their videos it's clear they actually use this combo so I do think they know that it is safe more than anyone else (besides someone who handles even more fish but I sure dont!)
Oh, I misunderstood, I thought he pitched this med trio as a quarantine measure to be used (safely) in all cases. In what instances does he state that salt ( sodium chloride?) should be used as a prophylactic instead of this med trio?


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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 11:10 PM
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His website says "This is how we personally quarantine fish at the store. You are free to adapt this any way you would like. This is what we have found to work well for us." but I am pretty sure I remember from watching the video in the past that he encouraged people do this method when quarantining and does also sell all three together in his shop (where it is listed as a best seller). Don't feel like watching the whole video again but I remember in the past thinking it was kind of nuts to preemptively treat fish for something they may not even need rather than just observe. I get that he is buying in large quantities of fish weekly but I worked at a fish store (one of my first jobs out of high school) and we observed the fish we got in before medicating them. With the exception of a medication for internal parasites for wild caught fish it seems kind of nuts to be spending money on antibiotics that aren't needed. And E.M is expensive! It seems crazy of him to use that on every new fish he brings in.

He seems like a nice guy but I'm with @Discusluv on this one.
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-21-2019, 11:20 PM
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His website says "This is how we personally quarantine fish at the store. You are free to adapt this any way you would like. This is what we have found to work well for us." but I am pretty sure I remember from watching the video in the past that he encouraged people do this method when quarantining and does also sell all three together in his shop (where it is listed as a best seller). Don't feel like watching the whole video again but I remember in the past thinking it was kind of nuts to preemptively treat fish for something they may not even need rather than just observe. I get that he is buying in large quantities of fish weekly but I worked at a fish store (one of my first jobs out of high school) and we observed the fish we got in before medicating them. With the exception of a medication for internal parasites for wild caught fish it seems kind of nuts to be spending money on antibiotics that aren't needed. And E.M is expensive! It seems crazy of him to use that on every new fish he brings in.

He seems like a nice guy but I'm with @Discusluv on this one.
Indiscriminate use of antibiotics is always bad practice. But, it really hits home when you look at all the various list of ailments and diseases that we are currently fighting in our population where erythromycin is indicated. We all know that increased exposure to antibiotics also increases bacterial resistance to these same drugs.


https://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-3...ist-conditions


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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-22-2019, 03:24 AM
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Yeah aside from being wasteful it seems like a sure bet to create antibiotic resistant strains of things.


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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 10-23-2019, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
I know- sigh- the truth is often harsh and sounds so mean. Sorry, no way around that. But, the good news is that we can all learn what we need to know with a bit of reading or a good, basic manual of fish health ( for novices). These resources will inform a new aquarist of the proper set-up of a quarantine tank, what to look for while fish are in quarantine, and when such things as deworming, antibacterials, or anti-biotics are in order.
For instance, one would learn that erythromycin is primarily for gram + bacteria and has, actually, very little effectiveness against gram - bacteria ( which is what we deal with 98% of time in the aquarium). So why recommend erythromycin when there are other drugs far more effective at dealing with the gram negative bacteria we do frequently face in the aquarium. Namely, columnaris. Erythromycin would be the last drug any educated aquarist would recommend for this condition. So, what is he recommending erythromycin for?

Most reputable resources on fish health will tell you to never just indiscriminately medicate without knowing some information: source of fish, identification of symptoms, and/or the likelihood of pathogen to affect species.

Cory is telling the newcomer that none of these things matter- just medicate regardless of context.



It isn't true that this cocktail will cure "most diseases."

Also, it has been demonstrated that there are warnings of using metronidazole and erythromycin together.

I would find the med trio makes it "easier for the novice" debatable. It could just be the appearance of ease that the consumer is getting by a promise by a retailer that they will do all the thinking for them.
Just to put it out there I don't know a lot about fish meds, my limited experience is I'm some what familiar with how to use salt and methylene blue and I don't actually own any of the "med trio". And credit where credit is due he has api erythromycin as "commonly used to treat columnaris", which appears to be incorrect, I'll see if I can pose that question to him. Outside of that though when you say things like...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
Cory is telling the newcomer that none of these things matter- just medicate regardless of context.

I would find the med trio makes it "easier for the novice" debatable. It could just be the appearance of ease that the consumer is getting by a promise by a retailer that they will do all the thinking for them.
It's clear you know nearly nothing about his channel and what he actually recommends big picture. So you're making it up or assuming way to much I don't know.

And a side note on no way around the truth being "harsh/mean".... If truth is not undergirded by kindness, it makes the truth obnoxious, and the bearer of it repulsive.
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