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ick (ich)

4K views 28 replies 8 participants last post by  redneck joe 
#1 ·
got a couple new angels awhile back (couple months). Into the quarantine tank. Lost two, remaining one appeared to have ich so i did the chemical treatment. Nothing. Repeated the treatment plus raised temp several times.

He's happy, active, always hungry, going as he should. I'm beginning to think the spots are just art of his coloration but in searching the interwebs and looking at several hundred pics of angels have not seen anything like it. No spots on the body just tail and dorsal fin.

I've watched the three spots on the tail, they are not getting larger, moved, smaller, etc. I cannot really tell if they are on the surface of the fin or as i'm thinking, just part of the coloration.

If it matters, I have several ghost shrinps in there. Not sure if they can get ich but they are happy.


Thoughts?













Bump: *note - in the third pic the spot that appears to be on his body is actually on the tank. There are no spots on the body.
 
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#3 ·
Well, if you've ruled-out ich, and the elongated pattern of the spots seems to support @Blue Ridge Reef's assessment, you may want to try methylene blue as a test. Use a net to take the fish out and hold it, flat, in the net. Apply the methylene blue to the body and put the fish back in the tank. If the spots are bad (parasites, fungus, bacteria), they will be stained blue, then you can medicate. If there is no staining, it is likely ok and may be normal for this fish.

However, I'd like to draw @Discusluv into this for a second opinion before trying this approach.
 
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#8 · (Edited)
Well, if you've ruled-out ich, and the elongated pattern of the spots seems to support @Blue Ridge Reef's assessment, you may want to try methylene blue as a test. Use a net to take the fish out and hold it, flat, in the net. Apply the methylene blue to the body and put the fish back in the tank. If the spots are bad (parasites, fungus, bacteria), they will be stained blue, then you can medicate. If there is no staining, it is likely ok and may be normal for this fish.

However, I'd like to draw @Discusluv into this for a second opinion before trying this approach.
This is an excellent suggestion.

Some questions:

What size was the quarantine tank? Was there any fighting -aggression- among these fish while all three in quarantine?
What were the symptoms that the 2 other fish had before death?
How long after getting the Angels and putting into quarantine did the other fish die?
 
#4 ·
A number of things you've mentioned tells me it is not ich but then more info might be needed that only leave like a thousand other potential problems? Lots of things out there that even the science group may not have spotted/named.
Too big, too stable and unchanging are a couple that say not ich, so moving on, what action happened when the others died? Parasites seem to be a major question, so did the fish have problems swimming before death which might indicate a swim bladder problem? Any chance that you took the opportunity to see if the spots were raised and could be scraped off the dead/dying fish? Tried to scrape one off this fish?
Tough decisions need to be made but for a reasonably common fish, it may be a time when the best route is to simply cut the losses, rather than expend too much money and effort on a cure.
 
#6 ·
The others were fine, just dead one day. Petsmart babies so I generally attribute a loss or two to being petsmart quality and so young - their bodies were about nickel size - this one was about quarter size.

is methylene blue the ich medicine?

And as long as he is acting healthy i'll just move him to a my 10 gallon and let him live in there. He's in a 3.5 now - either one too small but 10 is better. Might grab a few of wife guppies and see if they have any adverse affects.
 
#7 ·
Kind of piling on, but, yeah. Is not ich.

The spots are too large. Also, while ich can manifest at first as a few spots, it's soon many spots.

The life cycle of ich at any reasonable tank temperature for angels is about a week. The spots drop off after that time as part of their normal life cycle.

While I know it's not ich, I don't know what it is.
 
#11 ·
Of of the good points on many cichlids is that they will often give some time to sort out what's up when they act strange, rather than showing up dead. But small fish are much more of a challenge as they tend to die and it often does leave us to wonder. Sounds like a good plan top keep this one isolated until one gets a better idea of what the spots might be. Some work to try to sort out if the item in on the surface or part of the fin itself, may help to tell if it is some sort of parasite attached or it is a blob of whitish tissue which may now be totally safe. Somewhat like scar tissue, perhaps?
If the spots stay the same, I'm not against keeping a fish which is less than perfect and do sometimes breed them as it is often not something genetic but a simple injury from something which has now passed.
If we were all culled due to defects in appearance, I'm afraid many of us would be long gone!
 
#13 ·
I like to use something to gradually corner the fish and then use a wet hand as it does seem to do less damage to scales than nets. It can be a trek the first few times we try to hold a wet fish without hurting them. If it fits how the tank is setting, it may be worthwhile to stack something soft like pillows around the tank, just assuming that a drop may happen. Not too hard on a fish to drop to a pillow---compared to the floor!
A helper who is not too nervous is often helpful also. I'm lucky enough to have a former nurse in the house and She tells me it is lots less stress to scrape things off a fish than off a child! But sometimes a finger nail is the handy thing to scrape along over the spot and feel if it comes loose or is just a flat surface like a simple spot of different color.
What I would like to find out is whether the spot is color, something sticking into the flesh and sucking ( think ticks?) or it might be a hard shelled "egg" waiting for the right conditions to drop off and multiply.
Short idea of how ich works? The spots we see are doing damage as they suck on the fish and they make wounds. Those wounds are a major part of the problem as they often become infected and that disease is often the real killer so we want to reduce the number of sores by acting quickly and then do whatever we can to treat the resulting infections, etc.
But the part of ich which we don't see is also very important because, just like a tick, when done feeding, the ich drops off and lays on the bottom as a hard shelled item and that is hard to kill. So we can help reduce the number by being in a bare bottom tank and siphon off the loose stuff on the bottom.
And while we see the spots and have them on the bottom but hard to kill, we CAN treat and kill them as the hard shelled split and multiply into free swimming things which are soft and ready for killing!
So treatment is not hard to find as many things will kill the soft ones, but we need to work it long enough to be certain that there is nothing left on the fish like under the gill covers and none on the bottom or swimming. So whether we use salt to kill the free swimmers or something stronger, we need to work it a week or more past when we can't see them. Simple to kill but we do want to kill every last one as well as any "eggs" so we don't have to start over next week!!!
Sounds like treating the dog for fleas, perhaps? At least the fish don't go for a run in the woods and bring them back again.
 
#14 ·
thanks for the suggestions. I've ordered the blue stuff (and about everything else avail on amazon) so i'll do that and try the scrape. Don't have anyone calm enough to assist so i'll be on my own. Its a 3.5 gallon so i can move it to the floor and spread a blanket. I'm not queasy about holding a fish. Years ago I had a pleco that liked being petted. And I will be leaving the 10 gal i'm setting up as a bare bottom until i either fix this or determine that it is nothing.
 
#15 ·
Good to have a plan. Carry on and let us know what the "test" finds?
One thing that I've found at times is that whatever I scraped off was thin/clear enough that it got lost but was gone from the fish. Some of them seem to be kind of like a clear gel and almost disappear when removed, so don't be shocked if you get it off but can't find it?
 
#17 ·
You may have to cut your fingers off to get rid of it.

Applying it out of the tank allows for a concentrated application directly on the fish to be sure that it stains as desired. It is also better not to put it into a tank because it does stain things and can also harm the BB.
 
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#18 ·
Well, that was interesting. He sure didn't like that.

Got a healthy does of blue on both of us, as it washed off his body it did the same on the fins where the spots are - no blue 'stuck'. After about 5 min he's back to normal white spots.

I did forget to try and scrape one off. If ya'll think it is worth doing that at this point, let me know but if so i'm going to wait another day or two. He's had enough for one day.
 
#19 ·
Well, that was interesting. He sure didn't like that.

Got a healthy does of blue on both of us, as it washed off his body it did the same on the fins where the spots are - no blue 'stuck'. After about 5 min he's back to normal white spots.

I did forget to try and scrape one off. If ya'll think it is worth doing that at this point, let me know but if so i'm going to wait another day or two. He's had enough for one day.

In that case, Im thinking viral infection- with lymphocystis being the most common culprit. The fish is otherwise healthy, so no need to euthanize if you keep by itself and dont mind the appearance of fish. To maintain health long-term; however, will need to be vigilant of maintaining water quality and nutrition.



I don't think it is a parasite. But, in the rare chance it is... it would be a fish that has been bred in an outdoor pond and has acquired a parasite. It doesn't look like a naturally occurring parasite arising out of aquaria. Also, in instances where a fish acquires a parasite in an outdoor pond and is put into the aquarium- the parasite is usually unable to complete its life-cycle because of the need for a second and sometimes even third host.
 
#21 ·
Paraguard can work as an antibacterial. The active ingredients; malachite green and acriflavine act as antibacterials- methelyene blue- as an anti-fungal. So, yes, can use it when the fish going through an active viral infection. The best antibacterial, however, is to remove the bacterial load from water column through water changes.

Lymphocystis has several variants and is species/genera specific. Angelfish will have a specific form of lymphocystis that the guppy will not get; but, discus or uaru ( closely related by genus) will be susceptible to contracting.

Here is an article that briefly discusses both of your questions:

https://web.archive.org/web/2006012.../articles/management/Lawler_Lymphocystis.html
 
#22 ·
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#27 ·
Unfortunately, that is not a "level one" sterilizer, so it won't kill most viruses, bacteria or parasites. It may damage them somewhat, but is not a knock-down. However, it will ensure that you don't get green water outbreaks, which are one form of algae.

Level one UVS usually cost about $100-$150.
 
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