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post #31 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
They are in a 60 gallon right now. They will be here for about 6 months and then I will put in my 180 gallon tank. Ideally, yes, more would have been better to disperse aggression, but that is all Wetspot had left. I do not want to mix them with a scalare type because they will cross-breed and dont want that.



Right now this guy is trying to let the others now where their territories are. Discus do it too, although the Angels appear to be more aggressive toward each other than even discus.
I have been keeping two groups of keyhole cichlids. The first group of six which I got from the LFS were aggressive from the start even when they were not full grown. It may have been because of the cramped conditions in the store and limited food. I suspect they were relatively old for their size.

It turns out, of this six there was one male and five females. I believe the females were fighting for dominance. A pair formed and then the real aggression began. (Now it was 2vs everyone else, instead of 1vs.)

I separated the breeding pair who produced a batch of fry that I raised. I kept eight of the jueveniles with the two parents in a 75g and there was only intermittent aggression while they were smaller.

What I found was that as long as the children stayed out of sight for the 3-5 days that the parents attempted to breed, once they got it out of their system, the aggression disappeared and they would all shoal together again for two weeks. I eventually had to separate the parents to their own tank because beyond a certain point, their offspring wouldn't stay hidden, the parents never attempted, and it was weeks of non stop chasing.

The eight fry are now full grown and they get along amazingly well as a shoal in the 75. I think I have 4m, 4f based on relative size and body shape.

I'm sure you've witnessed variations of this in different species. I'm just sharing my story because you might find it interesting.

The point of all this is that cichlid aggression seems to be a combination of factors. If a group of siblings are brought up as a large shoal, without any food competition, in a large enough tank, they may stay friendly and not attempt to breed. With a larger number the chance of pairing is going to be less, imo.

Its probably impossible to know the psychology of wild caught fish.

My guess is that if there is enough vegitation to allow them to effectively hide without being visible, and if they are not attacked during feeding time, there won't be any damage or prolonged aggression. Keyholes can hunker down and camoflage themselves to become invisible. Angels probably can't hide as easily.
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post #32 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 08:47 PM Thread Starter
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I have been keeping two groups of keyhole cichlids. The first group of six which I got from the LFS were aggressive from the start even when they were not full grown. It may have been because of the cramped conditions in the store and limited food. I suspect they were relatively old for their size.

It turns out, of this six there was one male and five females. I believe the females were fighting for dominance. A pair formed and then the real aggression began. (Now it was 2vs everyone else, instead of 1vs.)

I separated the breeding pair who produced a batch of fry that I raised. I kept eight of the jueveniles with the two parents in a 75g and there was only intermittent aggression while they were smaller.

What I found was that as long as the children stayed out of sight for the 3-5 days that the parents attempted to breed, once they got it out of their system, the aggression disappeared and they would all shoal together again for two weeks. I eventually had to separate the parents to their own tank because beyond a certain point, their offspring wouldn't stay hidden, the parents never attempted, and it was weeks of non stop chasing.

The eight fry are now full grown and they get along amazingly well as a shoal in the 75. I think I have 4m, 4f based on relative size and body shape.

I'm sure you've witnessed variations of this in different species. I'm just sharing my story because you might find it interesting.

The point of all this is that cichlid aggression seems to be a combination of factors. If a group of siblings are brought up as a large shoal, without any food competition, in a large enough tank, they may stay friendly and not attempt to breed. With a larger number the chance of pairing is going to be less, imo.

Its probably impossible to know the psychology of wild caught fish.

My guess is that if there is enough vegitation to allow them to effectively hide without being visible, and if they are not attacked during feeding time, there won't be any damage or prolonged aggression. Keyholes can hunker down and camoflage themselves to become invisible. Angels probably can't hide as easily.
With cichlids, you always have to have a contingency plan for when it doesn't work out.
My wild geophagus, of which I have 8 in my 180 gallon, are much less aggressive to one another than I anticipated. They will rush at each other briefly, "kinda lock mouths" and then the subordinate fish will go in the other direction.
The Biotodomas and Bolivian Rams will chase each other briefly and harmlessly. They appear to really mark out distinctive territories and stay within these areas.

My discus are much like the Angels. They cannot kill each other directly, but will wear a fish down until it stops eating and sickens of some disease.


Yes, I did find that interesting, how the Keyhole offspring are getting along well and not attempting to breed. Hopefully this balance persists.



The tank I have the Angels in is lightly planted, but I will be transferring valisneria and ambula from my other tanks to get it denser.

180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
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post #33 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 08:50 PM
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The tank I have the Angels in is lightly planted, but I will be transferring valisneria and ambula from my other tanks to get it denser.

I was going to suggest a wall of jungle val. That stuff will grow tall and dense, even in a low tech tank.

I think the difference in cichlid aggression stems from two things: Are the fish big enough to directly hurt/kill another? And, do they maintain territories even when not breeding?

The keyholes don't maintain permanent territories, they can hide easily, and they aren't large enough or toothy enough to directly kill each other. I think angels are similar, with the exception that it is harder for them to hide.
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post #34 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-22-2018, 02:27 AM
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I would guess that if angels or keyhole cichlids really wanted to kill each other they could do so. I've seen keyhole cichlids kill other fish and while it has always been smaller and weaker fish they strike with enough force that if applied to a larger fish it would probably kill them or do damage that killed them. but the bullying and wearing down is probably the bigger threat. Same goes between my kribs and buffalo head cichlids where they sometimes get along and sometimes bully each other relentlessly but I have enough hiding places that ultimately they are OK. I have had mystery deaths of kribs though that I attribute to a blow from another fish. Not sure who the guilty party is in those situations. Probably their mate but maybe not.


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post #35 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-22-2018, 04:38 AM
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No one else said it so I will

You suck!!! ;>)


Okay I feel better. AWESOME fish. One of my lifetime goals is to keep and raise those. I have never seen them for sale in the Denver area.
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post #36 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-23-2018, 07:41 PM Thread Starter
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Thank goodness the bickering and chasing has settled down substantially- they have got their hierarchy all worked out and where each has a territory to go to.
Typical cichlid behavior.
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180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
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post #37 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 03:58 PM
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All great here - expanding a tiny bit at a time to include more than just Plants and locally bred fish .

Bump:
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No one else said it so I will

You suck!!! ;>)


Okay I feel better. AWESOME fish. One of my lifetime goals is to keep and raise those. I have never seen them for sale in the Denver area.
not many traditional LFS sell them and some that say they do have them ID wrong . Best place to get them is from Trusted breeders or a Trusted source . There are a few online stores that carry them WS being one and I know AQUATICCLARITY has them on occasion.
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post #38 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-25-2018, 06:05 PM
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Beautiful fish! I picked up 5 of them from my LFS. They said the altums are raised in a pond before being "wild caught" and shipped to the US.
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post #39 of 80 (permalink) Old 12-26-2018, 10:52 PM
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I'd guess people get the peruvians and the altums mixed up. I could see that as v. young juveniles but at some point...

The altums aren't closely enough related to interbreed with scalare x. A few breeders have tried it and the results didn't survive.

And yes; angels can and will kill each other. A hard blow to a vulnerable area...

My mind is aglow with trancient nodes of thought, careening through a cosmic vapor of invention - Hedley Lamar
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post #40 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-03-2019, 01:39 AM
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Wow, those are gorgeous fish. I'm impressed they look so bold and lively- I also had the idea wild caught altums would be very shy- but it sounds like the place you got them from acclimated them well to captivity. Please take more pictures to share!
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post #41 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 02:21 AM Thread Starter
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Updated video of the Altums.


180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
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post #42 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 04:27 AM
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They are so stunning!
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post #43 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 05:15 AM Thread Starter
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They are so stunning!
They are adorable little guys.
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180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
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post #44 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 09:25 PM
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Do your Angels hate a water change as much as mine do?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #45 of 80 (permalink) Old 01-05-2019, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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Do your Angels hate a water change as much as mine do?


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They retreat into the plants and I dont see them again until I restart the tank again.
So, yes, I think they are not much into the water change routine. Unlike my tetras who dive in and out of the water stream-while I am refilling and swim up and down the python tube as it drains the tank. Crazy little kamikazes.
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180 g. low tech w/ wild South American cichlids, corydoras eques, and African Congo riverine tetras.
60 g. low tech w/ F1 Alenquer pair /Stendker "Tefe" discus and wild Altum Angels
30 g. low tech w/ Wild Tucano tetras
30 g. low-tech African Biotope
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