Whats up with the bettas? - Page 4 - The Planted Tank Forum
View Poll Results: Recommended Betta Tank Size
1 gallon 1 1.82%
2.5 gallons 3 5.45%
3 - 4 gallons 8 14.55%
5 gallons 43 78.18%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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post #46 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 06:21 PM
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I hope I don't get in trouble for this and hope you guys can find the humor in it but this thread is starting to develop like this.
8=>
8==>
8===>
8====>

Its probably better to deal with some of these issues in pm's and keep this thread informational as it has some good content and best not derailed. You both have great knowledge from what I have read on here that people can benefit from but in my opinion this isn't reflective of how much positive information you both contribute.

Sorry if it upsets either of you as this was not intended for that purpose.

Dan
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post #47 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 06:24 PM
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I want to thank the OP for some extra links (particularly the disease ones) that I hadn't come across yet. As an owner of a 1yo betta, I feel like I'm always learning new things about the fish to refer to for later. There's a lot of knowledge out there on the web to sort through and analyze but it's nice compared to the old dusty book my aunt gave me as a kid.
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post #48 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 06:44 PM
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Okay here is the thing, a one gallon is the minimum for a betta. Now that is for the more experienced betta keepers, who know their care very well and can keep up with water changes and such. For a beginner of keeping bettas, I would have to say a 5 gallon is the minimum for a betta. A 5 gallon can keep its cycle, anything smaller cannot keep the cycle and will need daily routine maintenance.

BettaBettas does try his best with advising about bettas. No one is perfect in their care of bettas, other fish, and taking care of their tanks. We all have different opinions about the care of these things. Some have more knowledge than others. There is no ONE right way of taking care of bettas or even curing the diseases. When I helped Fishbeard with his/her betta, I thought about what I would do in the situation and what another person would do, then I advised. If Chard56 were to be on this forum again, he most likely would advise treatment over killing the betta, he would advise to try and save it before killing it. When any fish is sick, you try to save it before you kill it or it dies on its own.

@BettaBettas: being snippy and/or sarcastic can get you in trouble, so please refrain for it. I was snippy on another forum and I got in trouble.
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post #49 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:15 PM
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So, a couple of things.

I find that many of the people here are incredibly helpful, insightful and understanding. Much like the rest of the world, when people share a passion there are going to be opposing sides. There will be those who have a lot of experience, those with idealistic tendencies or sound theories and even those who probably don't have any knowledge but who desire to get better, and they all come here.

There is always a clash of personalities and ideas but at the end of the day there is a common goal that needs to be remembered. We come here for advice, feedback, validation and inspiration on the magical worlds that we create with our own minds and hands.

What matters most, and has been pointed out, is the way that each of us approach other people. At this point it isnít about who said what, itís about how what was said.

Iím grateful for the advice that I have received, and I hope that one day I may be able to impart that same knowledge on to someone else.

However, I do not believe that titles should dictate the level of respect a person deserves. Just as an elder doesnít get my respect because of their age, but because of the person they choose to be.

There are a few rational points being brought up with a common theme that I was pleased to see. The information and experience is there, but the presentation could be delivered with a little more compassion.

It is difficult to infer sarcasm through writing, and also the kind of sarcasm that was intended. The way one person reads something is not the same as the way someone else is going to understand it.

Moving forward I think that the bottom line is we all want the same thing.

Derailed or not, this thread has brought up some tensions and I think it safe to say that what needs to be said has been said. Focus on the facts, remember that we are all human, and mistakes can be prevented through education and compassion. Remedies are best offered with a spoonful of sugar.


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post #50 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:35 PM
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This thread was built to be a $hit show from the beginning(on purpose, or not, idk & don't care), and that's exactly what it has become. While it seems there may be some decent info, it's mostly just a pissing contest.

IMO I'm surprised it hasn't been shut down yet, but like much of this thread that's just a personal opinion.

What y'all should probably be discussing is the continuation of the betta trade through people who think they're "rescuing" fish from cups all while enabling the market. Again, just my opinion, if you wanna disapprove of the small tanks, bowls, vases, etc., your fight shouldn't be against each other but against the system in place that promotes the whole trade of bettas in cups, bowls, tiny tanks and such.

If you wanna complain about these things in the hobby, I hope your bettas are all from small breeders and hobbyist who want "what's best for the long term sustainability of the genus and trade." <---However that may be described.... My description may not be the best but I hope you at least understand what I'm trying to get across with that.

I've tried to refrain from any pointing fingers and $hit slinging. Just wanted to offer MY opinion on a much debated topic.


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post #51 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:49 PM Thread Starter
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To paraphrase you: If you don't like what I said, leave the thread. simple as 1: leave the thread to die 2: sigh 3: realize you need to be a nicer person on the forum.
just wanted to say, even lol


Yea I agree with most, this did start out as a conversational thread then everyone started gang banging Instead of continuing to comment and quote people, I think im going to just spectate and like posts in this thread *invisible*
;p
I got up 100 likes in 1 or two days this week, now im at 600... talk about achieving goals lol I didn't even know I had likes!
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post #52 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:53 PM
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Okay here is the thing, a one gallon is the minimum for a betta. Now that is for the more experienced betta keepers, who know their care very well and can keep up with water changes and such. For a beginner of keeping bettas, I would have to say a 5 gallon is the minimum for a betta. A 5 gallon can keep its cycle, anything smaller cannot keep the cycle and will need daily routine maintenance.



BettaBettas does try his best with advising about bettas. No one is perfect in their care of bettas, other fish, and taking care of their tanks. We all have different opinions about the care of these things. Some have more knowledge than others. There is no ONE right way of taking care of bettas or even curing the diseases. When I helped Fishbeard with his/her betta, I thought about what I would do in the situation and what another person would do, then I advised. If Chard56 were to be on this forum again, he most likely would advise treatment over killing the betta, he would advise to try and save it before killing it. When any fish is sick, you try to save it before you kill it or it dies on its own.


@BettaBettas: being snippy and/or sarcastic can get you in trouble, so please refrain for it. I was snippy on another forum and I got in trouble.





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post #53 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 07:56 PM
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Okay here is the thing, a one gallon is the minimum for a betta. Now that is for the more experienced betta keepers, who know their care very well and can keep up with water changes and such. For a beginner of keeping bettas, I would have to say a 5 gallon is the minimum for a betta. A 5 gallon can keep its cycle, anything smaller cannot keep the cycle and will need daily routine maintenance.



BettaBettas does try his best with advising about bettas. No one is perfect in their care of bettas, other fish, and taking care of their tanks. We all have different opinions about the care of these things. Some have more knowledge than others. There is no ONE right way of taking care of bettas or even curing the diseases. When I helped Fishbeard with his/her betta, I thought about what I would do in the situation and what another person would do, then I advised. If Chard56 were to be on this forum again, he most likely would advise treatment over killing the betta, he would advise to try and save it before killing it. When any fish is sick, you try to save it before you kill it or it dies on its own.


@BettaBettas: being snippy and/or sarcastic can get you in trouble, so please refrain for it. I was snippy on another forum and I got in trouble.


That's not actually true, a one gallon can keep a cycle and I believe someone on this form has done it (used it as a shrimp tank) and so can a 2.5 gallon. "Experienced" betta keepers shouldn't be keeping a betta in a 1 gallon unless they're housing the bettas they bred. A 1 gallon long term is not an appropriate home for a betta or any other fish for that matter.


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post #54 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 08:12 PM
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I already weighed in on this thread earlier.
This thread had absolutely no purpose, other than to make BettaBettas feel better about what he think is "right". It never had a conversational note, the only point was to make newbs feel bad.
I generally respected you @BettaBettas However this $hit show of a thread has made me lose a lot of respect for you and your opinions based on how you have treated longtime forum members that were blunt and upfront with you. @somewhatshocked
Please delete this thread

A 17-year old that faces parental opposition in this hobby

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post #55 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 08:21 PM Thread Starter
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I already weighed in on this thread earlier.
This thread had absolutely no purpose, other than to make BettaBettas feel better about what he think is "right". It never had a conversational note, the only point was to make newbs feel bad.
I generally respected you @BettaBettas However this $hit show of a thread has made me lose a lot of respect for you and your opinions based on how you have treated longtime forum members that were blunt and upfront with you. @somewhatshocked
Please delete this thread
would be nice if its main purpose was fulfilled but no one got it, except a few people. My main question / statement was there is a bunch of new people coming in, with betta problems, whats the reason.
main question above.
But thank you for calling me out again that's not surprising. Earlier I changed the topic on the thread to something completely different, must of missed it. Just Betta Talk basically. also @guvmarley im glad you enjoyed the links!
The arguing all started you with the first guy who commented (forgot his profile name) and the fact that I said something in another thread, about a betta, that wasn't engaged towards the OP but I said it to anyone who could read. People who read it thought I was talking to the op, and came here. I already stated I contacted the OP apologizing for the mix up, and hopefully was truly forgiven. And I edited the "God awful, hell hole of a comment"
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post #56 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:13 PM
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PlantedTank just emailed me directing me to this thread, and I can't blame them: it's entertaining as hell.

My outsider impression is that whatever issues some of you have with Bettabettas, they are not manifested here, and so your intrusion on this thread with your critiques of his personality reflects poorly on you, not him. If you don't like BB, that's your opinion and I'm happy to stipulate for argument that you are correct, but crapping on his thread because you're still mad at him for other threads on other days is distracting and destructive to this community. IMO this thread is not a "[censored]show," as some of you have called it as you have done your very best to turn it into one. Please handle your emotions and lead by example by maintaining a constructive tone and staying on-topic.

Bettabettas, Orville Redenbacher, my daughter's stupid betta and I thank you for starting the thread.
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post #57 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-24-2017, 09:52 PM
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Now to throw a spanner into the works.

Some male Bettas do not like open spaces in a bigger tank, they freak out and start fin biting ( Commonly mistaken for fin rot )

If you don't like this thread here's what you do. Top right corner of your browser there is an X hit that.
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post #58 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 01:32 AM
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Haven't been here in a while but I saw the betta topic and thought I'd contribute some things. I've had a number of bettas, six, and they're sort of a crap shoot overall. Many genetic issues, many prior poor treatment issues, both of which can result in a short lived fish and there's really no way, unless you deal directly with breeders that have strong, long lived fish, to know how things are going to go.

Tank size isn't terribly important from an ammonia standpoint, since they generate little ammonia. I've tested juvies in a one gallon temp container and it takes almost 24 hours for ammonia to be detectable with liquid kits. That doesn't mean a gallon is OK, although some dedicated keepers who are willing to change all the water daily have used that system forever. Takes a lot of diligence and IMO, that's not enough space for the fish to swim, but OK for a while in a store; good betta sellers spend most of their time changing water. Ours have been in eheim aquastyles, 6 and 9 gal and a 6 gal fluval edge. They display better in the eheims, the 6 gal edge is too short.

It's very, very easy to cycle a 5 gal or larger betta tank just by putting one betta in and changing lots of water frequently based on test results. Takes some knowledge, or at least willingness to do what you're told to do this smoothly. There's always amquel or aqua safe plus if things go haywire, but big pwc's still rule. Regardless of method, testing and developing toxin profiles are v. important during cycling; I mean write down test date and times and ppm's.

Personally, unless I'm absolutely sure the fish I'm introducing is clean, all new fish go into QT for 2-3 weeks with bacteria and parasite meds. I didn't do this when I started keeping fish years ago and wound up with a dozen tanks with camallanus, flagellates and bacterial infections, which taught me a huge amount about meds the hard way. We got lucky, at that point there were 40 tanks running! Same goes for plants, none go in without a long alum treatment, except tc's and those tube plants, unless I'm sure of them.

Of the first three bettas we bought, two were from P stores and the third from a good LFS. Two were halfmoons, one a crowntail. All three were put in cycled tanks and died within a few months. They all developed that intractable fin rot that antibiotics or MB dips or furacin green or metro or sulfa or...won't do anything about. In retrospect, none of those fish were in good shape when we got them, but we didn't know. One developed popeye, something doxy is great for (they all died in qt's) but after sitting for probably weeks in ammonia stew in the store after being shipped from Asia, his organs probably shut down. The other two just had melting fins but wouldn't eat and probably had latent ammonia damage, too.

The next three were selected more carefully, a red/blue halfmoon and a dark blue crowntail from P-Smart. We learned they were shipped in a green liquid (furacin green, maybe) and learned which day new shipments came into the local P stores, so we got two that were zippy and still in green water, the same day they were delivered. Our tap is pH 8.3, GH 400 ppm and P-Smart just dumped the shipping water, filled the cups with liquid rock and plopped the fish back in. Welcome to USA, ouch! Here's some nasty water that will make any amount of ammonia toxic, we'll be back in a week to change it! I gave up trying to explain they should replace the bay-tuh's cup water daily when I learned one associate just moved from small animals and was trained on fish that morning. That's all the training they got.

The third one was a blue over black halfmoon orchid I got from E bay All three went through thorough qt with meds and were super zippy when they were put in their tanks, really strong! The red/blue halfmoon did OK for a month, then started melting. I got it sort of under control in his display with sulfa but it still progressed slowly and after 3 months, he died with almost no fins and popeye in qt. The other two lived for 3 years, pretty long for these guys and were beautiful fish. They just got old and faded away eventually, good finnage, no internal infections.

BTW, I've always used RO with Ca and Mg added to dGH 6-7 and pH to 7 with bicarbonate. I can move fish very easily when the tanks are all the same, since shock occurs from sudden big pH and GH changes.

Since my early mistakes tought me a lot about meds and I had cured some really messed up fish, I was sought out by many betta owners to try and help their fish, most of which had melting fins. Some had bacterial skin ulcers from filthy tanks; those are easy to treat and responded well. I sorted through the well meaning hobbyists who dumped treats into their tanks relentlessly and had absurdly fat fish, the ones who bought every "happy" chemical sold and the ones who decided it was good to stir up the substrate really well before doing a small pwc and never could seem to maintain zero ammonia. They all cleaned up their acts and had clean water for the first time after some discussion; good efforts by all.

There were knowledgeable hobbyists who used modified RO, counted pellets, fed once a day, no treats and had clean tanks; with melting fins, too. We experimented with a number of meds, the hobbyists who could do a qt used doxy, metro, MB dips and furacins. The ones who treated display tanks used kanamycin, sulfa, metro and MB dips. They had all tried paraguard and some, salt (yuck!) Nothing stopped the melt progression; some of these fish had almost no fins when they died. We joked (it helped some) that they were reverting to their wild configuration.

The disappointing part of all this was that meds that worked very well on many other kinds of fish had little or no effect on these bettas, leaving organ damage from ammonia poisoning during shipping and/or store treatment and genetics as likely reasons.

It seems there's likely a big genetic component to many betta's early demise, they're very selectively bred and are far more delicate than livebearers, cichlids or other typical hobby fish. Oto's are tricky, but if they're introduced correctly, do well and can live a number of years.

Fancy goldies are genetically dubious similar to bettas but not nearly as much. Been through the same issues with many of them. They too, have been bred for centuries, sometimes into bizarre forms, just like bettas. Neither can swim worth a darn! I have one blue platinum veil angel, 5 yrs old and beautiful, sharing a tank with the small variety of gold nugget pleco/hypo. Started with 5 angels, they were a new strain at that time and genetics were not so good yet. The angel has a missing operculum on one side, doesn't seem to matter much, though.

So, I kind of rambled, but hope our fishy adventures are of some value. I tell hobbyists who want bettas all the things they can do to give their fish good conditions and tell them they may have to go through more than one or two to get a good one. Those who lost one usually go for apparent vigor on the second one even if their finnage or color are different from what they really want.
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post #59 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 01:32 AM
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PlantedTank just emailed me directing me to this thread, and I can't blame them: it's entertaining as hell.

My outsider impression is that whatever issues some of you have with Bettabettas, they are not manifested here, and so your intrusion on this thread with your critiques of his personality reflects poorly on you, not him. If you don't like BB, that's your opinion and I'm happy to stipulate for argument that you are correct, but crapping on his thread because you're still mad at him for other threads on other days is distracting and destructive to this community. IMO this thread is not a "[censored]show," as some of you have called it as you have done your very best to turn it into one. Please handle your emotions and lead by example by maintaining a constructive tone and staying on-topic.

Bettabettas, Orville Redenbacher, my daughter's stupid betta and I thank you for starting the thread.
Hey, thanks for making your 7th post in almost 3 years. Too bad it's such a poor one. This isn't about not liking BB (for me anyway). In fact, I said that BB has offered some good advice here. You would have seen some of his good advice yourself if you were a more active member at TPT. This thread was created to cause a stir and it did. I'm among those that hope it will be closed soon but in the meantime I guess we'll have uninformed posts like yours. You said it yourself - you're an outsider. Yet you judged people after reading one thread. Stay awhile. Get to know us. But don't pass judgment until you do.
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post #60 of 87 (permalink) Old 03-25-2017, 01:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloomer View Post
Haven't been here in a while but I saw the betta topic and thought I'd contribute some things. I've had a number of bettas, six, and they're sort of a crap shoot overall. Many genetic issues, many prior poor treatment issues, both of which can result in a short lived fish and there's really no way, unless you deal directly with breeders that have strong, long lived fish, to know how things are going to go.

Tank size isn't terribly important from an ammonia standpoint, since they generate little ammonia. I've tested juvies in a one gallon temp container and it takes almost 24 hours for ammonia to be detectable with liquid kits. That doesn't mean a gallon is OK, although some dedicated keepers who are willing to change all the water daily have used that system forever. Takes a lot of diligence and IMO, that's not enough space for the fish to swim, but OK for a while in a store; good betta sellers spend most of their time changing water. Ours have been in eheim aquastyles, 6 and 9 gal and a 6 gal fluval edge. They display better in the eheims, the 6 gal edge is too short.

It's very, very easy to cycle a 5 gal or larger betta tank just by putting one betta in and changing lots of water frequently based on test results. Takes some knowledge, or at least willingness to do what you're told to do this smoothly. There's always amquel or aqua safe plus if things go haywire, but big pwc's still rule. Regardless of method, testing and developing toxin profiles are v. important during cycling; I mean write down test date and times and ppm's.

Personally, unless I'm absolutely sure the fish I'm introducing is clean, all new fish go into QT for 2-3 weeks with bacteria and parasite meds. I didn't do this when I started keeping fish years ago and wound up with a dozen tanks with camallanus, flagellates and bacterial infections, which taught me a huge amount about meds the hard way. We got lucky, at that point there were 40 tanks running! Same goes for plants, none go in without a long alum treatment, except tc's and those tube plants, unless I'm sure of them.

Of the first three bettas we bought, two were from P stores and the third from a good LFS. Two were halfmoons, one a crowntail. All three were put in cycled tanks and died within a few months. They all developed that intractable fin rot that antibiotics or MB dips or furacin green or metro or sulfa or...won't do anything about. In retrospect, none of those fish were in good shape when we got them, but we didn't know. One developed popeye, something doxy is great for (they all died in qt's) but after sitting for probably weeks in ammonia stew in the store after being shipped from Asia, his organs probably shut down. The other two just had melting fins but wouldn't eat and probably had latent ammonia damage, too.

The next three were selected more carefully, a red/blue halfmoon and a dark blue crowntail from P-Smart. We learned they were shipped in a green liquid (furacin green, maybe) and learned which day new shipments came into the local P stores, so we got two that were zippy and still in green water, the same day they were delivered. Our tap is pH 8.3, GH 400 ppm and P-Smart just dumped the shipping water, filled the cups with liquid rock and plopped the fish back in. Welcome to USA, ouch! Here's some nasty water that will make any amount of ammonia toxic, we'll be back in a week to change it! I gave up trying to explain they should replace the bay-tuh's cup water daily when I learned one associate just moved from small animals and was trained on fish that morning. That's all the training they got.

The third one was a blue over black halfmoon orchid I got from E bay All three went through thorough qt with meds and were super zippy when they were put in their tanks, really strong! The red/blue halfmoon did OK for a month, then started melting. I got it sort of under control in his display with sulfa but it still progressed slowly and after 3 months, he died with almost no fins and popeye in qt. The other two lived for 3 years, pretty long for these guys and were beautiful fish. They just got old and faded away eventually, good finnage, no internal infections.

BTW, I've always used RO with Ca and Mg added to dGH 6-7 and pH to 7 with bicarbonate. I can move fish very easily when the tanks are all the same, since shock occurs from sudden big pH and GH changes.

Since my early mistakes tought me a lot about meds and I had cured some really messed up fish, I was sought out by many betta owners to try and help their fish, most of which had melting fins. Some had bacterial skin ulcers from filthy tanks; those are easy to treat and responded well. I sorted through the well meaning hobbyists who dumped treats into their tanks relentlessly and had absurdly fat fish, the ones who bought every "happy" chemical sold and the ones who decided it was good to stir up the substrate really well before doing a small pwc and never could seem to maintain zero ammonia. They all cleaned up their acts and had clean water for the first time after some discussion; good efforts by all.

There were knowledgeable hobbyists who used modified RO, counted pellets, fed once a day, no treats and had clean tanks; with melting fins, too. We experimented with a number of meds, the hobbyists who could do a qt used doxy, metro, MB dips and furacins. The ones who treated display tanks used kanamycin, sulfa, metro and MB dips. They had all tried paraguard and some, salt (yuck!) Nothing stopped the melt progression; some of these fish had almost no fins when they died. We joked (it helped some) that they were reverting to their wild configuration.

The disappointing part of all this was that meds that worked very well on many other kinds of fish had little or no effect on these bettas, leaving organ damage from ammonia poisoning during shipping and/or store treatment and genetics as likely reasons.

It seems there's likely a big genetic component to many betta's early demise, they're very selectively bred and are far more delicate than livebearers, cichlids or other typical hobby fish. Oto's are tricky, but if they're introduced correctly, do well and can live a number of years.

Fancy goldies are genetically dubious similar to bettas but not nearly as much. Been through the same issues with many of them. They too, have been bred for centuries, sometimes into bizarre forms, just like bettas. Neither can swim worth a darn! I have one blue platinum veil angel, 5 yrs old and beautiful, sharing a tank with the small variety of gold nugget pleco/hypo. Started with 5 angels, they were a new strain at that time and genetics were not so good yet. The angel has a missing operculum on one side, doesn't seem to matter much, though.

So, I kind of rambled, but hope our fishy adventures are of some value. I tell hobbyists who want bettas all the things they can do to give their fish good conditions and tell them they may have to go through more than one or two to get a good one. Those who lost one usually go for apparent vigor on the second one even if their finnage or color are different from what they really want.
Spellbinding write (well idk about spellbinding but pretty knowledgeable )
quality information and well thought out opinions. Also good story
Bloomer, Bloomer, NickAu and 1 others like this.
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