2000 psi, safe, cheap, non-ebay needle valve - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-06-2014, 10:23 PM Thread Starter
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2000 psi, safe, cheap, non-ebay needle valve

I just wanted to share this, I found it looking for regulators for paintball tank.

From what I have seen, some people use needle valves not meant for the pressure on a paintball tank, this would the correct one to use.

Output on a paintball tank is 850 psi. The valve is rated to 2000.

Remember this still comes with all the negatives of a needle valve, put is at least safe and only $8 shipped. Figured I would pick it up and share.

http://valvesandinstruments.com/1-4-...=smarttheme_en

Chris

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-06-2014, 11:52 PM
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How do you know that particular valve is rated for 2000 PSI? I do not see it anywhere on the website.

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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 12:09 AM Thread Starter
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Check the web address. And if your looking at it on your phone it doesn't.

Look on a computer.

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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 01:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00camaro16 View Post
Check the web address. And if your looking at it on your phone it doesn't.

Look on a computer.

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I'm not seeing 2000psi on the computer..
http://valvesandinstruments.com/1-4-...e-packing.html

I am seeing a lot of equiv . on fleabay rated at 600psi.......

390656308334
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 02:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00camaro16 View Post
Check the web address. And if your looking at it on your phone it doesn't.

Look on a computer.

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I am checking on a computer, and it does not show any specifics for that particular valve you linked.

Anthony


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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 02:26 AM
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Even rated at 5000 it's not safe unless you have a regulator keeping the pressure at a safer level to your post body kit.


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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 03:05 AM
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It is probably safe, but that isn't why we use a needle valve. A CO2 needle valve has to be able to throttle down the gas flow to what would normally be seen as an almost acceptable leak, and be able to adjust that flow +/- 25% or so repeatably. It also has to not leak at all at the valve stem, which is quite difficult to do cheaply. Our needle valves are not at all like that one.

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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 10:13 AM Thread Starter
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Warning you caught me before coffee so this may be a bit blunt. It is all typed respectfully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post
I'm not seeing 2000psi on the computer..
http://valvesandinstruments.com/1-4-...e-packing.html

I am seeing a lot of equiv . on fleabay rated at 600psi.......

390656308334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkblade48 View Post
How do you know that particular valve is rated for 2000 PSI? I do not see it anywhere on the website.
Web Address:
http://valvesandinstruments.com/1-4-...-needle-valve-2000-psi-maop-300-deg-f-max-temp-brass-body-seat-ptfe-packing.html

The sites Description:
1/4" BBV4 FEMALE NPT BRASS NEEDLE VALVE, 2000 PSI MAOP, 300 DEG F MAX TEMP, BRASS BODY/SEAT, PTFE PACKING

MAOP WikiDefinition:
"Maximum allowable operating pressure or MAOP refers to the wall strength of a pressurized cylinder such as a pipeline or storage tank and how much pressure the walls may safely hold in normal operation. The MAOP is less than the MAWP (maximum allowable working pressure). MAWP being the maximum pressure based on the design codes that the weakest component of a pressure vessel can handle. Commonly standard wall thickness components are used in fabricating pressurised equipment, and hence are able to withstand pressures above their design pressure. Design pressure is the maximum pressure a pressurised item can be exposed to. Due to the availability of standard wall thickness materials, many components will have a MAWP higher than the required design pressure. Relief valves are set at the design pressure of the pressurised item and sized to prevent the pressurised item being overpressured. Depending on the design code that the pressurised item is designed, an overpressure allowance can be used when sizing the relief valve. This is +10% for PD 5500, and ASME Section VIII div 1 & 2 (with an additional +10% allowance in ASME Section VIII for a fire relief case). ASME have different criteria for steam boilers."

I am sorry I can’t Show any more then that, That is what I was going off of... And the guy who found it on a brewing forum.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
It is probably safe, but that isn't why we use a needle valve. A CO2 needle valve has to be able to throttle down the gas flow to what would normally be seen as an almost acceptable leak, and be able to adjust that flow +/- 25% or so repeatably. It also has to not leak at all at the valve stem, which is quite difficult to do cheaply. Our needle valves are not at all like that one.
I know why we use it, but I see a lot of Tanks with and on/off switch attached to a needle valve rated for 250 psi. In this situation people are attempting to use the on/off valve as a step down to the needle valve. In general I will not put something that risky at my workplace, I won’t endanger other people. That is not what on/off valves for paintball tanks are used for, without going further into how paint-ballers use different equipment posting a linke to a safe needle valve was easiest… Minus explaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vvDO View Post
Even rated at 5000 it's not safe unless you have a regulator keeping the pressure at a safer level to your post body kit.


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I dis-agree with your reasoning, but agree with the statement. If a needle valve is able to constantly reduce pressure to a point where post body is rated, then it is fine. Plus it depends what is post needle valve, are you talking about bubble counter, diffuser, or the hose? In general you can say none of those can handle 850 psi when the valve fails… but they still can’t do it when the regulator fails. Granted regulator will less likely fail, but what are you trying to convince me of? I have a regulator made for a co2 tank.

Now I am not defending not using a regulator, but what I am saying is you are making an argument that this needle valve is not safe because if it fails, other components will break. Then you are going to have to replace all things with stuff that is safely rated to work under 850 psi. But in a normally seen set-up, if a regulator fails the needle valve will pop.

We can always say something is going to fail, because it will. But having a needle valve that is rated for the pressure I am working with seems like a better bet for me. I will spend the large sum of $8 to have one more component that is over rate for my system.





Man, touchy subject here it seems. I shall not try to post finds in the future. I do have a regulator for my system that is not yet built by the way.

Chris

Last edited by 00camaro16; 04-07-2014 at 10:24 AM. Reason: Figuring out bolding issues
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 02:47 PM
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Needle valves don't reduce the pressure. They only regulate the flow rate. I don't use paintball equipment and never have, so I can't say what people do who do use that equipment. But, I can say that a needle valve does not reduce pressure. Yes, there can be a huge pressure drop across a needle valve as long as there is a flow through it, but change that flow rate and the pressure drop across the needle valve changes. It takes a regulator to reduce pressure.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to keep otherwise uninformed people from believing that they can use a needle valve to reduce the 800 psi bottle pressure of CO2 down to a pressure that is safe to use with other equipment.

Hoppy
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 05:39 PM
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I deleted my past post to add clarity.. Technically you can "drop" the pressure w/ a needle valve (my assumption was that this was very little but I then thought of a leaky hose valve )..
but 1)crude way and IF opened too far, will allow HP into areas you really don't want HP in 2)depends a lot on the orifice geometry..

Have fun:
http://www.hyvair.com/pdf/pressdrop.pdf
http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluid..._flowmeter.cfm
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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 08:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffkrol View Post
I deleted my past post to add clarity.. Technically you can "drop" the pressure w/ a needle valve (my assumption was that this was very little but I then thought of a leaky hose valve )..
but 1)crude way and IF opened too far, will allow HP into areas you really don't want HP in 2)depends a lot on the orifice geometry..

Have fun:
http://www.hyvair.com/pdf/pressdrop.pdf
http://www.efunda.com/formulae/fluid..._flowmeter.cfm
OK, let's say you use a needle valve to drop the pressure leading to a sintered glass diffuser. The diffuser passes the desired amount of CO2 when its inlet pressure is 10 psi. Therefore the needle valve has dropped the bottle pressure down from 800 psi to 10 psi. Now, partially clog up the diffuser. Guess what happens to the 10 psi pressure? It goes up, to as high as 800 psi, if the clogging is severe. Substitute a regulator for the needle valve and the 10 psi remains at 10 psi even if the diffuser is totally clogged. That is what I mean by saying a needle valve does not drop the pressure.

If isn't rare for diffusers to clog up.

Hoppy
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-07-2014, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
OK, let's say you use a needle valve to drop the pressure leading to a sintered glass diffuser. The diffuser passes the desired amount of CO2 when its inlet pressure is 10 psi. Therefore the needle valve has dropped the bottle pressure down from 800 psi to 10 psi. Now, partially clog up the diffuser. Guess what happens to the 10 psi pressure? It goes up, to as high as 800 psi, if the clogging is severe. Substitute a regulator for the needle valve and the 10 psi remains at 10 psi even if the diffuser is totally clogged. That is what I mean by saying a needle valve does not drop the pressure.

If isn't rare for diffusers to clog up.
I know I agreed w/ you 100% .. then I got side tracked...

How to do a real world experiment.. Take your kitchen sink/bathroom faucet.. Open it till there is a teeny tiny drip.. Certainly that is not 30psi .. THEN put your finger over the faucet.. You can feel the pressure building until it is at 30psi..

Same w/ the non-regulated needle valve.. You can make a small CO2 drip but as you said.. once clogged or open fully you will get 600psi all through your system... most likely blowing hoses off stuff......

I just had to work this out a bit.. thanks...
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 04-08-2014, 03:24 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you all for adding more information to the thread. I agree with all of it.

I was hoping to add some safety to the set-ups I see in pictures where people are putting a needle valve right after an on/off valve. I am assuming people are doing this for cost savings. I highly suggest using a regulator as well, but though there are a ton of people who also suggest it I see people are still not. I was attempting to help those people.

For my case, I was looking for a needle valve for the regulator I just ordered anyways. After looking further I believe the company might be mis-advertising this valves psi rating. Once I do get it in the mail I will be doing more research and updating here. Also calling the company if their information is wrong.

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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 07-23-2014, 03:48 AM
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I would like to know more about your set up. For I am in totally in the dark as to put a DIY Paintball Co2 system together.
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