Forum Decorum - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 02:10 AM Thread Starter
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Forum Decorum

We have a pretty good thing going most of the time on this site for planted tank enthusiasts. I'm very picky about my forum time budget, but I keep coming back.

For the most part, we get along and learn from each other, even if we are exploring and enjoying different areas of the hobby.

However, we still have to deal with the same community issues as other hobby-based forums.

I think we should discuss these things, with more clarity away from other threads.

Cheers

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post #2 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 02:22 AM
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Oh my...wondering where this goes??
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post #3 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
Oh my...wondering where this goes??
LOL this is like holding out raw meat in front of alligators in the jungle and then discussing how to avoid them. The moderator will probably guide you to the Acceptable Use Policy.


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post #4 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 02:41 AM Thread Starter
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This is intentionally a reply.

I have been on forums since FidoNet, Usenet, and the beginning of the web.

This is just to say I have seen communities thrive or grow toxic, based on the member posts.


I want to talk about the templates for troll posts. How do you troll? (How do you spot a troll?)

Use at least one straw-man; even better use everyone as a second straw man.

Pose a rhetorical question, ideally in the negative, that implies that one group is not just wrong, but ignorant and complicit, and another group is right and under-fire. Imply that everyone is either in-on-it, or on the other side.

Ideally, your point should not be provable, but you can ask for proof from anyone still trying to be rational with you.


Let me make a ridiculous hobby example:

Why does everyone keep killing fish with Mars rocks, when everyone in low orbit only uses Moon rocks? <fight!>
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post #5 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 02:58 AM
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LOL this is like holding out raw meat in front of alligators in the jungle and then discussing how to avoid them. The moderator will probably guide you to the Acceptable Use Policy.
OK might as well get this rolling......before it's stopped.

So I'll start....and @Asteroid I think you will like this one.

If you are going to pontificate pictures should be mandatory. No exceptions.

Would only make this forum better, more helpful, and more interesting.


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post #6 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 03:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Streetwise View Post
Pose a rhetorical question, ideally in the negative, that implies that one group is not just wrong, but ignorant and complicit, and another group is right and under-fire. Imply that everyone is either in-on-it, or on the other side.
Does this not make "you" the Troll???

Thanks to Wiki !
Quote:
In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.


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Growing is not that difficult.
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post #7 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Asteroid View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
Oh my...wondering where this goes??
LOL this is like holding out raw meat in front of alligators in the jungle and then discussing how to avoid them. The moderator will probably guide you to the Acceptable Use Policy.
Going on computer just to like this

Quote:
Originally Posted by Streetwise View Post
This is intentionally a reply.


I have been on forums since FidoNet, Usenet, and the beginning of the web.

This is just to say I have seen communities thrive or grow toxic, based on the member posts.


I want to talk about the templates for troll posts. How do you troll? (How do you spot a troll?)

Use at least one straw-man; even better use everyone as a second straw man.

Pose a rhetorical question, ideally in the negative, that implies that one group is not just wrong, but ignorant and complicit, and another group is right and under-fire. Imply that everyone is either in-on-it, or on the other side.

Ideally, your point should not be provable, but you can ask for proof from anyone still trying to be rational with you.


Let me make a ridiculous hobby example:

Why does everyone keep killing fish with Mars rocks, when everyone in low orbit only uses Moon rocks? <fight!>
Do people deliberately troll fish forums? I have been watching this forum for a while and have seen.. naive people that held steadfast to the first answer to their Bing question but never a deliberate trolling
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At least I can grow Algae
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post #8 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 03:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
OK might as well get this rolling......before it's stopped.

So I'll start....and @Asteroid I think you will like this one.

If you are going to pontificate pictures should be mandatory. No exceptions.

Would only make this forum better, more helpful, and more interesting.
Yes i do like that. Since there is no real valid studies conducted, pictures make any information more believable and more compelling, especially since this is mostly a visual hobby.


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post #9 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 03:46 AM
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Going on computer just to like this

Do people deliberately troll fish forums? I have been watching this forum for a while and have seen.. naive people that held steadfast to the first answer to their Bing question but never a deliberate trolling
Both, I'm afraid. The harder question is how do you get people not to take the bait, and if they do--when to stop and walk away...
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Last edited by Desert Pupfish; 02-11-2020 at 05:45 AM. Reason: typo
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post #10 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 03:49 AM Thread Starter
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I am generally friendly with anyone here who has shared their mistakes, regardless of style.

Not easy, but we can stop toxic threads at any time, by denying them replies.

Cheers

Style: Organic potting soil, sand, gravel, wood, plants, moss, snails, shrimp, small fish, dual siestas
Tech : Small tanks, Fluval Plant 3.0 Nano, Top Fin MF10, Eheim Skim 350, Tunze 3161, Neptune Apex EL
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Last edited by Streetwise; 02-11-2020 at 05:01 AM. Reason: Edit
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post #11 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
If you are going to pontificate pictures should be mandatory. No exceptions.

Would only make this forum better, more helpful, and more interesting.
At the risk of trolling: a requirement that people post personal information on a website that can be seen by any person in the world, and potentially utilized nefariously (don't ask for examples), is probably not a good plan. Volunteering to do so is fine, but there is that credulity issue as well, e.g.; I could post a picture of a beautiful tank that I might download from an obscure source that may never be discovered.
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post #12 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 02:01 PM
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Just want to remind people that disagreement and debate are healthy, normal, and important. Trolling is very different. Even if a debate devolves into a heated argument with personal insults, that's not the same as trolling.

The word "troll" comes from troll fishing, where fishermen put out several individual lines to catch fish instead of using a net. Likewise, internet trolls look for groups of people with a strong interest or belief in something and then leave comments that are meant to get people so flabbergasted they can't resist replying. The "troll" part refers to how they leave one or two comments in many different places, looking to see who will take the bait (atheistic comments on a religious group, vegan comments on a sausage making video, etc.).

The key difference is that most people argue because they want to convince the other person, but trolls argue because they want to keep the other person occupied. They'll use bad logic, make crazy claims and then nitpick any attempt to refute them, ask for multiple sources while providing few of their own, continue using a source after it's been debunked, try to change the topic of the argument whenever others start to make headway against it, point out fallacies in the hopes that others point out theirs so they can argue about semantics/proper debate techniques, and so on. They are entertained by the idea of riling people up, so seeing you invest so much energy debating them while they know they're arguing in bad faith is funny to them.

Nowadays the term means something like "irritating person", but some people take it too far and think any kind of argument or people expressing any negative emotion in an argument counts as trolling. And while some people do end up using such techniques when they're really passionate about a topic and frustrated with the person they're arguing with, that's not the same as being a troll. It's important for mods to step in when things get too intense to help people remember their manners, but debates are important for exploring and reconciling the differences in our experiences and understanding of how things work, so we shouldn't shy away from them.

Additionally, though it's good to step away from a debate if you feel you're not getting anywhere, there's another risk in prematurely dismissing an argumentative person as a troll: they might actually be right. If someone's being a jerk, sure, ignore them. But sometimes the people who are being "difficult" and saying things in contrast to the accepted norms are just the first people to have noticed an inconsistency or alternative.

Last edited by Fishly; 02-11-2020 at 02:13 PM. Reason: typo
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post #13 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Fishly View Post
Just want to remind people that disagreement and debate are healthy, normal, and important. Trolling is very different. Even if a debate devolves into a heated argument with personal insults, that's not the same as trolling.

The word "troll" comes from troll fishing, where fishermen put out several individual lines to catch fish instead of using a net. Likewise, internet trolls look for groups of people with a strong interest or belief in something and then leave comments that are meant to get people so flabbergasted they can't resist replying. The "troll" part refers to how they leave one or two comments in many different places, looking to see who will take the bait (atheistic comments on a religious group, vegan comments on a sausage making video, etc.).

The key difference is that most people argue because they want to convince the other person, but trolls argue because they want to keep the other person occupied. They'll use bad logic, make crazy claims and then nitpick any attempt to refute them, ask for multiple sources while providing few of their own, continue using a source after it's been debunked, try to change the topic of the argument whenever others start to make headway against it, point out fallacies in the hopes that others point out theirs so they can argue about semantics/proper debate techniques, and so on. They are entertained by the idea of riling people up, so seeing you invest so much energy debating them while they know they're arguing in bad faith is funny to them.

Nowadays the term means something like "irritating person", but some people take it too far and think any kind of argument or people expressing any negative emotion in an argument counts as trolling. And while some people do end up using such techniques when they're really passionate about a topic and frustrated with the person they're arguing with, that's not the same as being a troll. It's important for mods to step in when things get too intense to help people remember their manners, but debates are important for exploring and reconciling the differences in our experiences and understanding of how things work, so we shouldn't shy away from them.

Additionally, though it's good to step away from a debate if you feel you're not getting anywhere, there's another risk in prematurely dismissing an argumentative person as a troll: they might actually be right. If someone's being a jerk, sure, ignore them. But sometimes the people who are being "difficult" and saying things in contrast to the accepted norms are just the first people to have noticed an inconsistency or alternative.
Excellent. So well said.


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post #14 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 09:13 PM Thread Starter
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Good points here, and no alligators have shown up!

I wonder if there is a standard internet type for someone who is in Don Quixote mode? I think folks in that mode can be tougher to interact with or help, at least on a specialized forum like this one.

Cheers
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post #15 of 151 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 09:32 PM
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At the risk of trolling: a requirement that people post personal information on a website that can be seen by any person in the world, and potentially utilized nefariously (don't ask for examples), is probably not a good plan. Volunteering to do so is fine, but there is that credulity issue as well, e.g.; I could post a picture of a beautiful tank that I might download from an obscure source that may never be discovered.

I do think it is a good way of spotting trolls however. I do see your point about personal information.
Like the saying goes "A picture is worth a thousand words"
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