Roy's 30 Gallon Red Spot Green Discus F1 - Page 3 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #31 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-06-2020, 08:38 PM
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Yes, a lot has changed since our meeting at the AGA 2019. Had a lot of fun in Seattle and was great meeting you and everyone else that was there.
Looking forward to, and likely hoping for the AGA 2021. Fingers crossed I will meet some new faces.

Rotala, hmmm. Will be interesting to see your results with the H'ra at your macro levels.

Completely agree on the lighting adjustment. Hard to get good performance with the gas pedal near the floor and a dirty fuel filter (running lean) :-)


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post #32 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-08-2020, 07:25 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

2020-09-07
Yesterday was water change day. I did a 50% water change and took the opportunity to make some of the plant species changes I mentioned earlier. I removed the sad Persicaria sp. 'Kawagoeanum' which had very little root system and they went into the compost pile. I removed all but one of the Limnophila rugosa which had good root systems but poor growth and I moved them to my 75 gallon. The Ludwigia sp 'Red' (which to me doesn't look like L. sp 'Red') was cut down to remove the emersed growth at the bottom and replanted just the submerged growth tops; the stems all had a good root systems. I dug around in my tanks and plant bank and added a couple of Nymphoides hydrophylla (aka sp. 'Taiwan'), some Rotala H'ra (aka 'Vietnam'), and a couple of stems of Limnophila sp. 'Wavy'. Here a picture showing the new layout and trial species.



1) Nymphoides hydrophylla (aka sp 'Taiwan') hiding behind the 'Trident'
2) Rotala H'ra (aka 'Vietnam')
3) Limnophila sp. 'Wavy'

Here are a better shots of the three species I added. First Nymphoides hydrophylla


Next Rotala H'ra


Lastly Limnophila sp. 'Wavy'


I also took a full set of water parameter readings after the water change and plant changes; here are the results:
pH = 6.8
dKH = 2.0
dGH = 4.0
Ca = 20 ppm
Mg = 5.23 ppm
NH3 = 0.25 ppm (possibly from disturbing the substrate?)
NO2 = 0.00 ppm
NO3 = 10.0 ppm

The fish are eating three meals a day consisting of frozen bloodworms, frozen adult brine shrimp, frozen adult brine shrimp with spirulina algae, freeze-dried tubifex worms. The discus are not really interested in Fluval Bug Bites, Extreme Krill Flakes, or Extreme Pellets. My live white worm culture has grown large enough that I should be able to add that sparingly to the food rotation.

Have a great week everyone! -Roy

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post #33 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-12-2020, 03:57 AM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

2020-09-10
Today I did a 9 gallon water change and did a light vac at the front of the tank. Added 1/2 tsp CaSO4 (3.97 ppm Ca / +0.56 dGH); 1/4 tsp MgSO4 (1.38 ppm Mg / +0.32 dGH); 1/4 tsp K2SO4 (7.9 ppm K); 1/32 tsp KH2PO4 (1.34 ppm of PO4; 0.44 ppm P; 0.55 ppm K for GSA. All the discus are eating well and seem to be establishing a comfortable pecking order.

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post #34 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-16-2020, 06:48 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

I apologize for being a little late in my posting this week. I am on the Board of our local aquarium club, Greater Seattle Aquarium Society (gsas.org) and we had a board meeting last night that I had to prepare for. I did do my water change as scheduled on Monday.

2020-09-14
Today was the big water change of about 50% or 12 gallons. After the water change I took readings and these are the results.
I also took a full set of water parameter readings after the water change and plant changes; here are the results:
pH = 6.4
dKH = 2.0
dGH = 4.0
Ca = 20 ppm
Mg = 5.23 ppm
NH3 = 0.00 ppm (possibly from disturbing the substrate?)
NO2 = 0.00 ppm
NO3 = 10.0 ppm

The ammonia came down from 0.25 ppm last week to 0.00 this week which kind of confirms that changing the plants and disturbing the substrate caused the slight increase in NH3 that we saw. Because we have hit my target dGH and Ca and Mg levels I did not add any calcium sulfate (CaSO4*2H2O) or magnesium sulfate (MgSO4*7H2O) for the plants. The fish are doing fine and still eating like swimming pigs although they seem to feel entitled and only eat frozen bloodworms, live adult brine shrimp, frozen brine shrimp, and FD tubifex worms. They turn their noses up at krill flakes and Fluval Bug Bites, any suggestions as to how to encourage them to eat other foods would be appreciated.

Here are some pictures from Monday; first the overall tank shot.


The Rotala H'ra (aka 'Vietnam') is doing as expected. With the low nutrient levels in the water column the Rotala has taken off, can you see all the new stems starting to emerged along the original stems?


The Myriophyllum sp. Guyana is starting to branch at the top of the stems; the Oldenlandia salzmannii continues to grow toward the surface and will need trimming soon. And on the far right the Hygrophylla arcuata continues to grow slowly. Regrettably the Eriocaulon 'Vietnam' in the foreground continues to just sit there. It will be moved to another tank in the near future.


They Limnophila sp 'Curly' that was added last week is also growing nicely.


Just like the Oldenlandia salzmannii the Ludwigia sp 'Red' (*doubtful this is correct identification) is growing to the surface, this is after I removed the original emerged growth from bottom of the stems last week.

And a partial 'Family Portrait'


Lastly, for @Shan_Evolved a video of the fish eating FD Tubifex Worms
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Roy_________
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post #35 of 44 (permalink) Old 09-19-2020, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

2020-09-28
Another 9 gallon water change today. I siphoned up about 1/4" of the sand substrate at the front of the tank because it was showing little specks of algae and looking "dirty" and replaced it with fresh sand. The fish continue to eat and grow; today I gave them live white worms (Enchytraeus albidus) for the first time. The plants continue to grow including the Rotala H'ra, Ludwigia sp 'Red' (NOT), and the Ludwigia arcuata is looking taller as is the Limnophila sp 'Wavy'.


Notice the watersprite (Ceratopteris thalictroides) growing behind the Microsporum pteropus 'Windelov' (java fern); Ceratopteris are great plants for absorbing nitrates and ammonia.
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post #36 of 44 (permalink) Old 10-13-2020, 02:52 AM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

2020-10-12
It's been a few weeks since my last update. The fish are doing fine, eating well (too well?), water changes continue two to three times per week and the plants have been growing. Here is how overgrown the plants looked two weeks ago just before I did a trim and split some of the species to additional locations in the tank.


The last two weeks I've been helping my son-in-law build a 15' X 9' frame shed and although the water changes have continued on schedule my ferts went by the wayside. Today I did my 'big' weekly water change, about 60%, and took water parameter readings:
pH = 6.4
dKH = 2.0
dGH = 1.0
Ca = 10 ppm
Mg = 0.00 ppm
NH3 = 0.00 ppm
NO2 = 0.00 ppm
NO3 = 10.0 ppm

Even without ferts being added the plants continued to grow, the cuttings I planted two weeks ago are starting to reach the top of the tank (again) and other are starting to show up from behind the Microsorum pteropus (java fern) 'Windelov'. The Erio 'Vietnam' continues to suffer so I put two (2) beads of Osmocote Plus in the root zone of the three plants on the left to see if they respond. In addition I added some small pieces of Seachem Root Tabs in the substrate near the Cryptocoryne. I noticed some diatom (brown algae) growth about a month ago. I purchased two (2) Otocinclus affinis at the local aquarium shop and quarantined them for a month. I added them today. Here is a picture of the tank taken this morning.

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post #37 of 44 (permalink) Old 11-05-2020, 04:58 PM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

It was pointed out to me that I had not posted an update lately, I apologize. For the last six weeks my son-in-law and I are building a frame 10' X 16' X 12' high shed (from scratch not a kit) in his backyard. It has 4 windows, 2 doors, and lighting with outlets (I think it is a man-cave to hide from my daughter - lol). Truthfully, I have been too tired to do anything but feed my tanks and do water changes.....70 year olds should not have to work this hard! lol

2020-11-04
Anyway, the fish are doing well. Growing, and feeling more and more comfortable in their tank. They get live adult brine shrimp, frozen bloodworms, FD Tubifex worms, and live white worms. They are starting to show some color as well. I added some Cardinal Tetras to the tank as 'dither fish' which seems to be working. The tetras were not from Petsmart or Petco but from a LFS that quarantines and treats all of their fish with Mardel Maracyn, Fritz Paracleanse, and Aquarium Solutions Ich X for one week prior to the fish going into the retail store (don't you wish your LFS did that?).

Here is one of the juvies starting to show some color


And here is a tank shot from this evening showing some of the discus and the Cardinals. The plants will be trimmed and taken to a LFS for store credit later this week.
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post #38 of 44 (permalink) Old 11-23-2020, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
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Hi All,

I hope all of you are well and safe.

It's been three (3) weeks since my last update and no, I didn't fall of the roof of the shed my son-in-law and I are building (I let him to all the roof work, I just handed him material). The seven (7) F1 RSGD are doing well, growing like weeds, and very healthy! Three weeks ago I took the plants to the LFS as I said I would, there where about 8 bunches total of Rotala, Ludwigia, and Oldenlandia for which I got store credit. Today I did my second canister cleaning since setting up the tank (about every 8 weeks with a Marineland Magniflow 220). I replaced the Purigen bag with a recharged & neutralized bag, rinsed the sponges and bio-balls in tank water, and replaced the filter floss. I do everything I can to minimize the possibility of a 'mini-cycle' occurring. Tomorrow is water change day and I will take some water parameter readings at that time.

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post #39 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-08-2021, 04:53 PM
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Glad to see someone trying to grow out Discus in a planted tank and having success. The fish look great and the plants seem to be doing well too. I just started the same type of project. I rescaped my 75 and put in 7 3.5"-4" discus. I love discus and I love planted tanks, and the prevalent thought that they are mutually exclusive has always bothered me. So despite what everyone says on the other forums I wanted to try and prove that it can be done. And it's very encouraging to see you having success. I think i will start a new journal for this tank so hopefully I can help others see that it's possible too.

A couple of questions for you..... are you running C02 in this tank? I stopped using co2 because I didn't want to distress the discus any more than I had to, especially in the beginning. But I'm considering it down the road once things get settled more. Just interested in your experience with it if you are running it. Also, what are you doing for micros? I have mixed my own in the past, but that was for a high fert co2 tank. I have actually not been dosing anything in this tank so far and the plants have been doing ok, but for them to do well I think I will probably need to add some K and micros. I'm just not sure how much since the N and P are kept so low. One interesting thing I've noticed is that my Ammania Senegalensis, that struggled at times in my high tech tank, is thriving in these lean conditions, so it's funny you mentioned it as one that doesn't do well with water column dosing. Maybe I should try some Rotalas too since they have generally struggled in my tank as well.


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post #40 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-08-2021, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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A couple of questions for you..... are you running C02 in this tank? I stopped using co2 because I didn't want to distress the discus any more than I had to, especially in the beginning. But I'm considering it down the road once things get settled more. Just interested in your experience with it if you are running it. Also, what are you doing for micros? I have mixed my own in the past, but that was for a high fert co2 tank. I have actually not been dosing anything in this tank so far and the plants have been doing ok, but for them to do well I think I will probably need to add some K and micros. I'm just not sure how much since the N and P are kept so low. One interesting thing I've noticed is that my Ammania Senegalensis, that struggled at times in my high tech tank, is thriving in these lean conditions, so it's funny you mentioned it as one that doesn't do well with water column dosing. Maybe I should try some Rotalas too since they have generally struggled in my tank as well.
Hi @elusive77,

Yes, I am running moderate CO2 in the tank, about 30ppm based upon my drop checker with 4.0 dKH indicator solution. As I indicated in my thread I am dosing four (4) size "00" Osmocote Plus root tabs (placed on the bottom) every 4 months or so. I am dosing Seachem Comprehensive for micro-nutrients twice a week per the recommended dosage. And once I week I dose 7.5 ppm of K2SO4, and 2.0 ppm of KH2PO4 (due to GSA issues). I also add 4 ppm of CaSO4 and 1.4 ppm of MgSO4 due to the soft water I have here in Seattle (1.0 dKH / 2.0 dGH).

I will say some plant species seem to do well in the tank, Rotala, Pogostemon, Ludwigia, and some like my Erios did not like it. From what I learned about Ammania senegalensis (and in fact many species from the family Lythraceae - which includes Rotala) from a talk given by @Saxa Tilly at the international convention of Aquatic Gardeners Assn in 2019, they don't like water column feeding and due much better with substrate feeding and low nutrient levels in the water column. Here is a thread he did (as user name Pikez) on The Barr Report. A video stream of the talk along with the entire 2019 convention including talks by Christel Kasselmann is available from AGA for $15. https://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/dvds.html

BTW, my Rotala are growing like weeks in my discus tank. Hope this helps! -Roy

Current picture of 30 gallon - moving them shortly to my 75 gallon

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post #41 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-10-2021, 05:16 PM
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The first two discus look pretty good, but some of the juveniles in back look really stunted due to environmental conditions.
Sure, you can keep discus in this type of environment, but they will not grow to their full potential.
These fish need more water changes and feedings per day. You can see it in the way their bodies are developing and the eye to body ratio.
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post #42 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-10-2021, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
The first two discus look pretty good, but some of the juveniles in back look really stunted due to environmental conditions.
Sure, you can keep discus in this type of environment, but they will not grow to their full potential.
These fish need more water changes and feedings per day. You can see it in the way their bodies are developing and the eye to body ratio.
I have to concur. I began breeding discus in 1969, a pair of wild browns, and last bred F1 Blues back in 2012 then illness took me out of the hobby. These F1 Blues were barely 8 weeks old when I received them and they were given live Artemia nauplii three times daily plus earthworm sticks.
I also like planted tanks and I siliconed a 3 inch tall pane of glass covered by natural finish tile facing running length of tank as a retaining wall to divide their tank. This allows planting the back half while the front half has barely enough fine sand to cover the bottom glass.
Young Discus need constant feeding or as close to it as is possible. I highly recommend introducing your Discus to earthworm sticks. This food lends itself well to extending the time discus have to graze and allows them to sift the thin front layer of sand for food bits. This became my Discus's staple food plus frozen bloodworms and occasional live blackworms. F1 Discus from wild parents will not grow quite as fast as domesticated strains.
My minimum water changes were 2/3 tank volume about twice a week. Ideally I would have flow through water if it were practical.
The seemingly slight differences of growth rates among juveniles quickly magnify and are rarely possible to be compensated later in their development.
Best of luck with these special fish. Few realize how rare it is to be able to acquire a group of true F1 wild S. tarzoo.(I'm still not used to this name.)
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post #43 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-11-2021, 05:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Discusluv View Post
The first two discus look pretty good, but some of the juveniles in back look really stunted due to environmental conditions.
Sure, you can keep discus in this type of environment, but they will not grow to their full potential.
These fish need more water changes and feedings per day. You can see it in the way their bodies are developing and the eye to body ratio.
How many feedings per day/ how large of water changes are recommended? Are you looking for a small eye or a large eye relative to body size?

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post #44 of 44 (permalink) Old 01-11-2021, 06:03 PM
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Juvenile discus ( under 3 inch) require at least 5 small feedings a day of a high-protein food source. Many use freeze-dried black-worms or an equivalent instead of beefheart which had been the go-to . As they get older, their diet needs broaden and they become more omnivorous and do not need as many feedings. But, as juveniles, 5 feedings a day of high-protein foods are a must.

Under 3 inches, with the high-protein feedings required, it is recommended to do at least 25% daily water changes as you vacuum up any uneaten food and waste. AS they get older, the feedings required will go down, waste will go down, and amount and frequency of water changes will go down.

Small eye to body ratio.
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