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The Breeding Project: Dark Rams ( Update: + New EBR/GBR Pairs)

49K views 366 replies 36 participants last post by  Discusluv 
#1 · (Edited)
Another cichlid pair for future breeding stock. :)
I was able to find and have purchased a breeding pair of Dark Black Rams ( F3) from reputable breeder. These offspring are from stock originating from breeders in Israel. Here is a bit about them.



Black Rams... - Other Fish Discussions - CanadaPleco Forums


Some shadowy pictures of my pair from breeders listing:







More pictures and info to come !
 
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#2 ·
Hi @Discusluv,

I too enjoy dwarf cichlids including Apistogramma and M. ramirezi. One of our local club members, Dean, has been breeding the 'black rams' for about a year now and has found out something interesting. First they are very sensitive as to water quality, since you know discus that should not be an issue. Second, unlike blue Rams, the size is of the spawn is much, much smaller. Lastly, only about 25% of the spawn are black, the remainder are light colored. I don't believe they are 'albino' per se but almost that color of pigment, it appears that the 'black' / 'dark' gene is recessive. I hope they do well for you! ( I am guessing they were a little on the 'pricey' side / I know what our member paid for his?)
 
#3 ·
Hi @Discusluv,

I too enjoy dwarf cichlids including Apistogramma and M. ramirezi. One of our local club members, Dean, has been breeding the 'black rams' for about a year now and has found out something interesting. First they are very sensitive as to water quality, since you know discus that should not be an issue. Second, unlike blue Rams, the size is of the spawn is much, much smaller. Lastly, only about 25% of the spawn are black, the remainder are light colored. I don't believe they are 'albino' per se but almost that color of pigment, it appears that the 'black' / 'dark' gene is recessive. I hope they do well for you! ( I am guessing they were a little on the 'pricey' side / I know what our member paid for his?)
Yes, pricey, but the cost was less than I have seen offered from online retailers who show pictures of extremely sub-par stock. The black color on this pair looks very, very good.



Not worried about water quality-- Im used to having to keep really good standards as far as that is concerned. Mostly just a bit concerned of there getting to me healthy and acclimating well to the aquarium.



All else Ill take as it comes. Ill definitely keep a journal up to document how the breeding project goes. But, also, just so others can see them in the aquarium, learn their behaviors, and get an idea of their care.
 
#4 ·
I have seen these guys before and thought they were the most amazing fish. I didnt read the website you posted, so shame on me if this question is the first thing they covered. Are these, like many other fish in our hobby, a product of excessive inbreeding? Or are they naturally occurring in the wild and just very rare?
I only ask as the susceptibility to water conditions and spawning rates being lower than blues just screams inbreeding. I think we have all seen this in the hobby though, just interested.
Cannot wait to follow along with this amy!

Edit: and I was right...first thing I read was that it is a specifically bred mutation. Ughhh read first James you fool!
 
#5 ·
These fish are lost in USPS no -mans land. Heart-broken as they should have been to me 3 days ago. Not worried that the vendor wont make good at this point ( I am getting assurances it will be made good) I am just sick that such a beautiful pair of fish are suffering or dead.

This is why I don't like to use vendors that ship USPS with fish.

This is the 3rd time that this has happened to me in 5 years when I have used vendors that used USPS shipping. Each time I protest that USPS shipping is not my thing and am willing to pay for overnight shipping and each time I am assured that USPS is "almost always" a flawless shipping experience. [I have paid for overnight shipping at least a dozen if not more-times from a handful of reputable vendors and the experience is always, indeed, flawless]. This time, however, I bid for these fish on Aquabid ( a pretty penny at that) and the shipping was predetermined in bid. I felt nervous about it but swallowed this nervousness because this vendor has shipped thousands of fish.

I have ordered USPS shipping of fish 5 times- 3 times of those 5 times were a problem.

Again, I feel so sick about these fish.
 
#6 ·
These fish are lost in USPS no -mans land. Heart-broken as they should have been to me 3 days ago. Not worried that the vendor wont make good at this point ( I am getting assurances it will be made good) I am just sick that such a beautiful pair of fish are suffering or dead.

This is why I don't like to use vendors that ship USPS with fish.
Oh no! I'm so sorry to hear this. Just awful. Hopefully they arrive alive and still manage to acclimate, but I know the feeling in your gut right now. Fingers crossed for them.

Hi @Discusluv,

I too enjoy dwarf cichlids including Apistogramma and M. ramirezi. One of our local club members, Dean, has been breeding the 'black rams' for about a year now and has found out something interesting. First they are very sensitive as to water quality, since you know discus that should not be an issue. Second, unlike blue Rams, the size is of the spawn is much, much smaller. Lastly, only about 25% of the spawn are black, the remainder are light colored. I don't believe they are 'albino' per se but almost that color of pigment, it appears that the 'black' / 'dark' gene is recessive. I hope they do well for you! ( I am guessing they were a little on the 'pricey' side / I know what our member paid for his?)
I wonder if that's not a matter of more than simple recessive genes, then? If crossing two visual animals with the same simple recessive gene (or set of genes), you'd expect all offspring to resemble the parents. I bred corn snake mutations for a couple of decades and got pretty familiar with genetics on that scale -think back to the punnet squares from science class. My immediate thought is that the yellow (typical) rams are co-dominant themselves, or else the black individuals will show dark color even if only carrying the gene.
For example:
BB (true dark ram)
Bb (visually a dark ram, but only carries one allele)
bb (normal ram)
But in that supposition, you'd still expect all dark fry from a spawn of 2 dark individuals. This thread has taken me down a rabbit hole. Just read a 66 page topic on another forum with people discussing their breeding trials. Seems some folks are experiencing 100% black fry. Which would lead me back toward thinking it's a recessive gene with a visual heterozygous form. At any rate, I hope these make it and we get to learn more!
 
#8 ·
Here's hoping USPS gets its ducks in a row. I've always been too anxious to ship anything living via USPS without going the Express route. Even then, I prefer FedEx Overnight or air freight via Delta or Southwest.

Maybe this situation will help motivate the seller to offer another shipping option for buyers in the future.
 
#11 ·
So sorry to hear about your currently missing fish. Hoping for the best for you.

I order very little that has to be shipped to me as I have a really good LFS that will also do special orders when they can. But I do know what it's like when you see that rare or special fish that you really want. So I've ordered maybe half a dozen times and fortunately only one order got delayed 2 extra days over a weekend (USPS, of course). But in my case, all fish made it. Really hoping the same it true for you. Keep us posted.
 
#24 ·
They both ate a bit earlier... so far so good.
Did a quick look with light on and super quick videos with 2 different spectrum's of light overhead. It is very difficult to see how gorgeous these two fish are except in person. Despite being in a bag in a box for the last 8 days.

https://vimeo.com/365195431

https://vimeo.com/365195860
 
#32 ·
Its official, they are fine after 8 days in a bag.
Crazy-- who would have thunk it...

Something interesting: the juvenile discus are scared of the rams. What???
Ever since put the dark rams in with them they are all 3 huddled in corner and not eating. I haven't seen the rams charge them or anything; but they are so timid in same tank with them. This is not good, these babies need to get all the nutrition that can right now so not eating is unacceptable. So, made an executive decision that I would not recommend to anyone else... I put the juvenile discus in with the alenquer adults after being exposed to the rams.

Ahhh... could of been a disaster, but no bacterial explosion, fortunately. Always worry about that cross-contamination of foreign bacteria-- but after 48 hours that risk has past. Even more interesting to me, the adults are being very nice to the babies. Not being there typical-- "Im bigger than you so I am going to beat you up" cichlid-selves. LOL!

So now the dark rams are in a 30 gallon all by themselves. Hopefully in time will get some off-spring.
 
#34 ·
Do you think the could grow more comfortable with the Rams over time? Or is it just not worth the effort because Discus are so... complex?
Its possible that they could have become used to them, but---

Because juvenile discus have such a weak immune system, any stress can open their system up to bacterial or internal protozoan issues in the aquarium. These guys are around 3- 3.5 inches. Their immune systems are still almost nil.

Also, juveniles at this size need to eat 3-5 small feedings daily to get adequate nutrition. They hadn't ate in 2 days.
 
#38 ·
Update: These guys are doing excellent. I haven't noticed any breeding behaviors, but they sure enjoy each others company. They are pretty pampered in being the only fish in a 30 gallon tank. Like always they are very difficult to capture. I did my best.
These cichlids are very aggressive for their size. Im not used to really aggressive cichlids, but for their size these Rams are pretty intimidating to other fish. I forgot I had a BN pleco in here when I took the juvenile discus out because they were so wary of the Rams. I remembered when I noticed the rams had him cornered just under the waterline by the filter inlet. I mean they were picking at his tail. So weird.

I am also working on cleaning up the tank, rescaping, and adding other plants. It was just getting to messy to me. Ordered some mosses from Jake to make a moss tree. Ordered a few other plants, but it will be kept pretty clean looking. Will be adding new filter inlets and outlets and a smaller, "prettier" heater. But, it has some more cleaning up left to go.

Should I put a black background on here? Im afraid if I did Ill never be able to get a shot of these fish again ( mediocre as they are)--- they are so dark. anyways, some pics:





 
#39 ·
First off, they are beautiful and kudos for doing such a good job with them. I like the way the tank is configured as is, I suspect you are correct that a black background would wash them out too much. Perhaps a frosted background? It could add a touch of elegance without making the fish too unnoticeable. Regarding your experience with aggression, that is strange. In my experience, mikrogeophagus ramirezi only had aggressive behavior within conspecifics, the rams I've kept have always left other fish alone unless they were breeding, and even then their aggression was contained to a small area around the nesting site. But I've only kept German blues and golds...maybe different color genes bring out more aggressive behavior? I've personally observed this in kingsnakes...albino California kings have always been like bats out of hell for me, whereas their "normal" colored counterparts were mellow yellow.

Maybe adding some dithers will calm them down? Some kind of tetra or rasbora? Or you could keep them as a solitary pair as is, they seem to be doing great that way.

Either way, very nice fish and I love the aquascape! Plants would really tie it all together. ;-)
 
#40 ·
Thank you for your insights @varanidguy.
Ive had many different South American cichlids over the years and Ive never seen any consistently harass fish outside species.
I have seen my geophagus nose corydoras out of the way, quickly change direction- just to get them out of their way. I have seen them also do quick bursts of dominance at other cichlids--like against my biotodoma cupidos-- but very quickly. Its a quick movement that means "back off" and is over as soon as it starts. It is never a sustained harassment.
All my cichlids have been oblivious of schoolers.
This is discus, apistogramma, Altums Angels, Scalare Angels, Blue and Bolivian rams, Biotodoma Cupidos and wavarinni, and geophagus.
Now, Central American and African cichlids- that's a different story. They can express cross-species aggression. But, I havent kept them.

I am wondering if this is the breed? There isnt much out there on them, but I need to do some research. I actually will contact the breeder and see what he has to say about them.

This is a breeder/quarantine tank so its never going to be stunning- lol! Its also pretty old. But, it is in my living room an I dont want to be embarrassed when people come over for the holidays. Someday ill have a fish room where I can keep a "proper" ugly breeder tank. :)
 
#41 ·
Amy it looks amazing.
My difficulty was always having 'ugly' breeder tanks. Which is far from this.
While I have no experience with rams, I think I'm breeding tanks you should make it as easy on yourself as possible with cleanings. After all, fish love breeding in very clean water, so if you can clean everything without disturbing the tank too much, that is key (in my eyes).
Anyway, I am so excited for your progress here. It looks amazing and I cant wait until you start seeing some activity.
 
#43 ·
Rams apparently need some special considerations to get them breeding. Here is a video from Dean who works with aquarium co-op.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bhnlqnOo440
Funny, I saw Dean Tweedle at my Sacramento Aquarium society meeting a couple months ago. He was there talking about his trip to collect fish in the Amazon.
Thanks for the video. Very helpful.
 
#45 ·
Well, we will just have to fix that. If they have some babies Ill send some your way. Just dont put even a snail in with them that you care about because they are honery little buggers.

They are so happy now that the bit of plants are in tank, exploring everything new. They appear very curious and intelligent.
 
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