long time lurker, first time tank - 63L - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-15-2019, 09:05 AM Thread Starter
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long time lurker, first time tank - 63L

Hi everyone,

I've been lurking here and on APC for many years after some failed attempts over 10 years ago at planted tank and now I'm finally taking a crack at it. I've got a 63L (60x30x35) that I'm currently testing out some hardscape ideas on. I'm planning to go with an offset concave shape and hoping to achieve something similar to my diagram attached below. I've got the basic shape of the layout using some lava rock and some bigger gravel to support it and fill in the gaps.

I'm going with an aquatic plant soil I found here in Germany that I've seen used by at least one dude on youtube. Unfortunately, there is no law requiring a "guaranteed analysis" of the soil contents here so I avoided potting soils as I have no clue about their contents. The "teicherde" (pond earth in German) I'm using looks decent, definitely has a good amount of clay in it and probably some sand. Hopefully it's got enough nutrients to supply some DOC to my plants.

Lighting is a Nicrew Classic LED Plus for now, although after impulse buying it, I kinda wish I had just ponied up for a Chihiros series A plus. I'll see how my plants do for a month or so and go from there.

Water in berlin is quite hard (teens for GH and kH) but luckily I have access to RO water, so I'm planning to mix either 50:50 or 66:34 tap to RO to reduce the hardness a bit.

Plant list for now:
Java moss
Java fern
S. repens
R. rotundifolia
H. Zosterifolia
Hornwort
L. sessiliflora
C. wendtii
Monte Carlo
H. tripartita

Hoping to finish the setup this weekend, so any advice or comments are appreciated!

Thanks!
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-21-2019, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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So, I got my tank set up over the weekend! Everything is looking pretty good, although I did run into a few snags here and there. I feel like I could have kept tweaking my hardscape, but I couldn't wait anymore. The plants arrived and I needed to put them in the tank, so Friday night I was gluing wood to rocks with the cigarette filter trick like a mad man. Then, I put my pond soil in the tank and worried about if I got the depth correct or not. And finally I put the black sand in to cap the soil. I went for about 2cm of each, in some places with deep rooting plants I went to about 2.5cm for each. My soil was a bit granular as I wet it down when I got it and it has high clay content, so I figure it might settle down a good bit. Putting the sand it was a bit harder than I thought, since it moves around so easily as the tank is being filled. Unfortunately a good bit of it rolled down off my hills and into the lower parts of the tank, where it was already deep enough to begin with. I'll try to address this over the course of the next month during water changes by either spoon scooping these back to the top or vacuuming some of the sand out.

Then I got to the plant Xmas I had been waiting for: Opening a box of 50euro worth of plants! I quickly realized that I bought probably 2-3 more than I needed and there was no chance I was going to use all of them. I started with the Monte Carlo, which I found rather difficult to plant. Hard to tell where the roots are on such a little plant, so I more or less just stuck some little bunches in the sand and hoped they would take. Other plants were a bit a easier, especially stems. Heteranthera Zosterifolia gave me some trouble as well and I was left feeling like that one was definitely going to die. After it was all done, I filled'er up and waited.

Next morning, everyone was looking pretty good EXCEPT my Hornwort which had almost completely melted down. Not sure if this is just new tank melt, due to water params, or because I planted it in the substrate. Last night (Day 2) I fished some hornwort out of a trash bag to leave floating at the top of the tank just in case, although this morning it looks like its also melting..... In any case, most of the remaining plants seem to be doing well. At the beginning of Day 3 here I can see some new grow on the H. zosterifolia, the rotala, the tripartita and also maybe the S. repens. Monte carlo is also looking OK, although I'm betting it will turn out pretty stringy under my Nicrew Classsic LED plus. My S. subulata and crypts seem to be struggling the most, but that could just be because they are heavy substrate feeders and they need some time.

I did a 30% water change yesterday and am planning to do another on friday of this week, but so far so good! Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. Thanks!
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-26-2019, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Added 8 Amano's and 2 Nerites yesterday which was pretty exciting. Never had shrimp before and I was a bit skeptical I'd like them as much as I do, but watching them go to town on all the dead leaves in my tank has been great. Unfortunately I had at least one escapee Amano that I found on the floor this morning and the other is missing. I kind of expected to lose one or so, but ordered a plexiglass lid immediately so it won't happen again.

I'm seeing new growth on all my plants and am pretty impressed after only one week. Monte Carlo is even sending out runners here and there. However some of the leaves on the monte carlo seem to be dying off, so I'm not sure if my plants are starving or just settling in. This is also happening on my Heteranthera zosterifolia and my subulata as well. I'm using the Tropica guide so far, but that's suggesting not fertilizing until the 3rd week and I'm not sure they'll be so happy til then. I'm seeing a tiny tiny bit of algae on the glass, and my driftwood has that new wood white stuff but otherwise I think it's looking good.

My plants are definitely stretching for the light but I think its a positive thing to know that such a cheap like the Nicrew can actually grow some plants. I'll probably upgrade to a Chihiro's A series plus though since I do really want nice dense carpets though....

I'm still not running a filter, but Eheims are a dime a dozen on the berlin craigslist so I'll probably start running one soon just to protect my animals. I picked up a heater for 5 euro although its probably not necessary until the winter.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-27-2019, 12:43 AM
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Filter at least a clear up haze in water, nicrew lights are modest par so you don’t need any haze in water cutting par that’s reaching substrate. Even small little air driven fine double sponge filter will do wonders in clearing up haze and you need the circulation and oxygenation. In tank like yours you might find it’s really only filter you need unless you go crazy on fish bio-load.

As far as dosing I would go ahead and start at 1/3 the recommended weekly dosing rate, mix it 1-2 liter of distilled/ro water and just use that to top off for evaporation every day. You don’t want to dump a excess in water column but you also don’t want the modest growth your getting to completely deplete any of macro or micro nutrients. Excess you’ll get algae, deficiency your plant growth will stall.

Watch your tank for algae after you start light dosing, back off if it starts to get excessive, a little bit is kind of norm in a tank like yours till it settles in at about 4mo. Watch your stargrass and Rotundifolia, their 2 plants that feed from water column as much as soil bed, good indicator plants, as their growth rate increases start slowly upping dosing rate as plant load increases. To much algae showing up, skip a days dose and dilute your dosing water down to back off.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 05-28-2019, 09:01 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the advice. I did a 30% water change today and realized I should definitely get some flow and filtration going ASAP. My shrimp were so happy with the new water! I'll probably pick up a used eheim canister since they're easily available and will probably be close to the same cost as buying an air pump and sponge filter. It looks like there's an eheim classic 2213 "250" nearby. Is there any problem with going with a larger filter, other than unruly flow? I know it can help with increased bioload. Stocking plans are just a crew of Otos and maybe 10-12 Neons.

Been a little lazy with water testing but maybe tomorrow I can squeeze a full test in. I realized I planted my subulata too deep and thats probably why I was getting some dead leaves. I pulled most of them up a bit although they probably still need some adjustments. They are the subulata "pusilla" variant, which is supposed to be smaller than the regular but mine are stringy as hell. Light probably. Everything is growing though and rotala is switching to submersed form which is nice.

Going to order some ferts tomorrow and trimming tools as well. Looking forward to the first trim this weekend and tidying things up a bit.

Here's how it looks today
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-05-2019, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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So, everything seems to be going OK in the tank. At least no catastrophes yet. I managed to pick up an Eheim 2213 for pretty cheap and finally got in up an running today, albeit without proper inlets and outlets (on the way from Hong Kong). My ferts also arrived today, which I'm particularly excited about because I think some of my plants have been starving a bit. I hypothesize that my tank is heavily planted enough that the plants are sucking the nutrients right out of the water and the faster growing plants (like my hornwort) are getting choked out. Growth has slowed down a good bit on a lot of plants and I'm having a bit of a diatom bloom. I've been doing 30% water changes when it looks dirty, about every 3 days, but planning to step this back now that there's the filter going and the tank finally has some flow.

The shrimp are definitely super excited about the flow. They were getting a bit sedentary now and again before but now they're playing around like crazy. I'll probably pick up a few more since I enjoy them so much. I think 10 of these guys in my tank will obliterate any algae. Sadly, as I write this, it appears I lost a shrimp. Looks like during a molt. Will do a full water test tomorrow morning before the trim/ water change.

Gonna do a big trim tomorrow since I just got my tools finally. Planning to trim everything back pretty hard to see how low I can get things to set despite my weak light. Monte Carlo is sending out runners still and is generally looking good. My weakest links right now are somehow the Hornwort and the S. subulata, which I expected to be my easiest plants. Will start with ferts tomorrow and report back after the weekend.

As always comments and advice appreciated! Thanks!

Only other minor issue I've got right now is some cloudy water, I think a medium strength bacterial bloom, that just won't quit. I suspect my frequent water changes are doing it, although another possibility is that some mud is leaking thru the top of my hill on the right since so much of that sand has rolled down to the bottom. For now I'm just gonna let the filter do it's thing and see what happens.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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Did my first trim today which was very satisfying. Cleaned up any dead or dying leaves and gave everything that was getting tall a nice trim. Also was down by the shrimp shop so I picked up 6 more Amanos and 1 orange nerite.

I did a full water test and found nothing out of the ordinary, except maybe 0.25ppm ammonia, which could have been caused by the dead shrimp I found. Hopefully not the cause of the death.

I also diluted some fertilizer (tropica premium) to about 1/3 the recommended dose and added a bit of that. I think that got my plants pearling a bit which was nice. With this trim the scape is taking shape a bit. I aggressively trimmed the subulata back hoping any new growth comes in shorter. S. repens got trimmed and if it fills out ill be feeling proud. Some of my plants have been looking a bit pale so Im hoping the food will help. Hornwort is perpetually melting, I think due to the diatoms I had.

Heres the tank after a trim, sorry for the glare. Had a flight to catch!
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-06-2019, 04:50 PM
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Gorgeous! I hate hornwort...it makes such a mess!

It's not a mystery...snails are the BEST!
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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 12:33 PM Thread Starter
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Attachment 882649So after coming home from a little weekend vacation I found my tank looking pretty good. Most plants have responded well to the trim, especially H. zosterifolia and S. repens. MC seems to be taking off in response to the 1/3rd strength dosing I've been dosing every other day. New growth on my plants seems to be coming in a bit weak/stringy. They don't appear to be stretching, so much as they have slender stems which are not robust. I'm wondering if this could be because I'm not dosing Flourish and the plants are lacking a solid supply of carbon despite being stimulated to grow by the newly supplied nutrients. Still early days, so I'll probably just keep an eye on it and go from there. Hornwort still sucking and S. subulata growing very slowly. Overall I'm pretty happy with the growth though.

I did a water test when I got back and got these values:

pH: 7.0
Ammonia: 0.5 ppm
Nitrite: 0.5 ppm
Nitrate: 8 ppm
Phosphate: 1 ppm
kH: 6
gH: 11
Fe: 0.25
Cu: 0
Notes: 4 days after starting ferts, 2 days after last dose.

Unfortunately I lost two shrimp as well, which is probably due to the NH3/NO2. Will adding bottled bacteria help me with this? I guess I was hoping that I was heavily planted enough to deal with these water parameters but apparently not. One suspicious thing I found was that because my filter has been running for the same amount of time I've had detectable NH3 (about 1 week now). I rigged up vinyl tubing inlets and outlets using zipties (outlet shaped more or less like a jet), which is blowing the sand off the top of the opposing hill. I've taken a picture and attached it here. Does anyone think the thin layer of sand left on top of the soil could be causing ammonia to leak into my water column? I will try to address this during tonight's water change by adding more sand, although it will probably remain a problem until my lily pipe arrives from China. This is the first time I've detected Nitrites so I'm hoping this minicycle will pass soon. Also at this point, I think I'll stop testing pH, gH, kH since they seem quite stable and are in a good range with my RO:tap mixture. Just gotta watch the nitrogen compounds and hopefully I don't lose my lil' shrimp guys that I'm a huge fan of!

Last but not least, I have some type of pest growing in the tank right now. It is attached to the glass and seems to like high flow areas. its whitish and sortof half-circular shaped, is this hydra? I know ID is tough without pics, but I'll snap some tonight.

As always, advice and comments appreciated. Thanks

EDIT: sorry the pic is upside down! I can't seem to get it to attach properly despite appearing normal on my PC. Hopefully you can still not the thin layer of sand on top of the soil.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 03:03 PM
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Hey there,

Yes, disturbing a substrate can cause ammonia issues; especially if it's enriched plant stuff. The ammonia/nitrite issue is also likely due in part to the filter being so new. The premise of planting heavily from the start assumes the tank's getting filtered as well, so the cycling/maturation process is still in its early stages. A bacterial additive from a reputable brand will likely be beneficial at this stage. The sooner the microbial community is established the sooner your shrimp will be happy. As far as plants dying off in the beginning, the great majority of Tropica's plants are grown hydroponically with their stems and leaves above water, so they're dropping those leaves while adjusting to underwater life.

I've never regretted over engineering a system, but often regretted under engineering one.
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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-11-2019, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks for the input! I bought some bacteria in a bottle at the LFS (JBL brand) on the way home from work. I did a quick water test:

NH3: 0.5ppm
NO2: 0.4ppm
NO3: 20ppm

So NO3 shooting up but otherwise not much change. I brought home some RO water to do a 30% WC and add the bb. The tank LOOKS good, but my shrimp are turning pink-ish and I've read that's more or less a death sentence. Praying bb can help me out but don't believe in magic solutions so we'll see. Pick of the tank attached

Ive also attached a pic of the pests, theyre the white boomerangs to the left of the center of the image. Any ideas what they are? Looks like they might be on my moss as well. Thanks.
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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-13-2019, 01:32 PM Thread Starter
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Did another water change yesterday and had these values:

before WC:

NH3:0.25
NO2:1
NO3:25

After WC:

NH3:0.2
NO2:.5
NO3:12.5

This Morning:

NH3:~0.2
NO2:0.25
NO3:10

Seems like things are on their way back down. I added a touch more of the bottled bacteria last night hoping for a little boost. Will continue to monitor every 24hrs till that NO2 reading is at 0ppm.

Realized that my fear of overfeeding and hurting water params might have been causing me to starve my shrimp a bit. Since I did the massive water change last week where I scraped the sides and thoroughly cleaned the substrate there hasn't been much algae growth. I dropped a couple pellets in last night after the work was done and the tank became like the Thunderdome briefly. They were at war for the pellets! I'm going to start feeding at least every other day and start crushing at least half the pellets up so little guys get some too. I THINK but am not sure that the food I've given them has their colors returning more to normal but I'm not sure yet. Definitely lost a few during these nitrogen cycle, but am really hoping that ALL the reddish ones don't croak as that is the majority of the 8-9 I have left.

Should I be stopping ferts during this nitrogen cycle, until params are back in order? The tropica premium all in one I'm using doesn't list the ingredients, so I have no clue if what I'm dumping in their could be feeding/hurting the cycle. My plants till seem like they're healthy-ish, but the new growth looks fragile. For instance the hornwort has thread-thickness stems that are reaching across the tank top. Rotala stems also looking rather thin. I'll try to get some pics tonight.
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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 12:37 PM
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Don't stop adding nutrients as the plants need them. Stay on top of your water changes and monitoring and you should be ok. Out of curiosity, did the filter come full of media or was it only the couple of things new ones typically come with? I ask because you may want or need to add more media to improve the filter's performance.


Two shrimp enter. One shrimp leaves.
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I've never regretted over engineering a system, but often regretted under engineering one.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-14-2019, 03:08 PM Thread Starter
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Filter was purchased used but came with 2 coarse filter pads and the seperating baskets and a new O-ring. I purchased some cermaic rings and put those in, along with a homemade fine filter pad. I think the filter is working pretty well, although I should probably crack it open this weekend and rinse some of the junk out of the coarse pads since they filtered all the crap out of the water after I started (no pre-filter). I've been keeping up with WCs every other day or so, NH3 just keeps kreepin on back up to 0.5ppm. Hoping this can be mostly resolved by late next week as I'm going away again.... Shrimp seem happy and healthy though. Colors are definitely returning to normal after being pinky for a while.

Gotta check the expiration date of the bacteria I'm using.

New growth is definitely looking stunted, but I don't know why..... I obv have decent levels of nitrogenous compounds. Will check phosphates tn but don't think that's it either.
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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old 06-18-2019, 12:21 PM Thread Starter
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Ok so a minor update here. I've been monitoring NH3/NO2/NO3 every 24 hours for the past days and finally yesterday and today it's looking like the NH3 is back to near-zero levels. I wouldn't say the test is COMPLETELY yellow yet but its very very close. NO2 is still up around 1ppm 48hrs after a 30% WC, but Ive been keeping up with those and dropping it back down to about 0.5ppm when necessary. Hoping that since my NH3 is down, my NO2 levels won't be far behind. I'm heading out of town Thursday morning very early, so I'll be giving the tank a thorough once over tomorrow night and then praying it doesn't all go to [censored][censored][censored][censored] while I'm away.

I kept going with my ferts as recommended here and have them going about half strength. I realized I needed to re-dose a bit after such frequent water changes and that helped some of the plants along a bit. I'm going to give anything thats too tall a trim tomorrow night.

One thing I noticed: It's normal to see a bit of pearling after a WC, but yesterday my filter got some air stuck in it while I did my WC. I shook my filter around a bit and this resulted in about 3-4 minutes of finely atomized bubbles coming out of the fitler outlet, leading to very aggressive pearling for almost 2 hours after the WC! Does this mean that I'd see much better growth if I just threw a regular air stone/pump combo in the tank? What other factors in my WC water could account for this growth stimulation? The water i use is about 30% RO in Tap water, but I know my tap water doesn't have anything too special in it other. It's unlikely that the bubble in filter was CO2 right? so was it just the better oxygenation triggering the pearling?

Shrimp and snails seem happy. All my friends keep asking "where's the fish?!" but since I'm only planning on stocking Oto's and Neon's I'm holding off until I return from holidays in about 3 weeks. Hopefully the tank will be fully settled in then.

Heres the tank as it was last night (cloudiness due to the bubbles described above).
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