Cl3537's Very Green 17G - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 02:13 AM Thread Starter
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Cl3537's Very Green 17G



Feb. 3

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Feb. 27 after move to new location.

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March 1, After Major Trim and Green Hair Algae Fight!


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post #2 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 02:31 AM Thread Starter
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Tank Parameters March 3, 2019

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post #3 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 02:37 AM
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Well, will you look at that
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post #4 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 02:45 AM Thread Starter
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Well, will you look at that
You and Greggz guilted me into posting it sooner than I planned.


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post #5 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 02:58 AM Thread Starter
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So this has not been a great week for my tank.

1) Today I woke up to find my recently bought (2 days ago) True Siamese Algae Eater dead in the Ranunculus in the front. He/She did not make the transition to my tank, TDS at fish store is twice what mine is and pH is degassed value. I did acclimate him but much like Otocinclus these fish are bred and shipped and are often very weak. My tank was too small for him anyway and I didn't see him eat any algae while he was in my tank.

2) Yesterday I lost two Otocinclus that had been in the tank for months, I found one dead in my canister filter and the other was caught in the inflow filter tubing of my skimmer. My mistake I wanted better flow and left the sponge out of the inflow, didn't think my Otos would even fit in the opening he was folded and stuck in there, I was wrong.

I also found alive luckily 1 large Amano Shrimp, 2 missing neon tetras and a dead Espei Rasbora half eaten in the filter. My suction is clearly stronger than I expected and a sponge at all times is mandatory. All of those were sucked into the filter overnight when I just left the hose without the skimmer and sponge in the tank.

The Amano and neons are doing fine but I'll have to replace the Otos and the Espei Rasbora. Unfortunately Montreal is cold this time of year and none of the trusted fish stores have Otos in stock right now.


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post #6 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 03:04 AM
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I do like that first pic in this thread.

hat said, sorry to hear about this weeks issues.
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post #7 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 03:19 AM
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Great looking tank. I say about few more months here at TPT and you will some how manage to get atleast 15 more species of plants in there. Have fun and enjoy the ride
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post #8 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 03:22 AM Thread Starter
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I have been battling hair algae which you might be able to barely see if you blow up the pictures. I expect it is because of the sunlight coming in from the windows behind the tank(see March 1 shot). It was mostly concentrated in the right back corner on my Rotala Rotundifolia closest to the windows but no stem plant was safe from getting it a little. It is a tiny amount but seeing it at all bothers my OCD.


As a result of it I tried the following:

1) I upped CO2, before I had just inline diffusor and pH drop from 8.2 to 6.8. ~24ppm CO2 max(kh=5). Now I am running it to ph drop of 6.6(~38ppm CO2). Bubble rate is even lower but the inline diffusor now feeds into my Eheim Canister inflow and I don't see any microbubbles in the tank. I know this is not advisable, but I have yet see a shred of evidence that for my situation it will damage my BB or impellor. The small bubbles from <2bps don't seem to be collecting, no burping, and I doubt the BB would be affected anyway.
2) I dosed Excel at 2X reccomended Daily dosage for 4 days without seeing any results.
3) I made sure my lights are only on at 60% for 6 hours a day broken up to 4 hours and then 2 hours on a dimmer.
4) I have trimmed most of the worst of it from the Rotala and Ranunculus, but I would hardly have any plants left if I got all of it.
New Growth on Rotala seems Algae Free for now but nothing is getting rid of it off old Rotala and Ranunculus. I put foam mats blocking the sunlight from behind the tank but ultimately I'll have to move it to another room where it won't have the problem.
5) On suggestion at the LFS I bough 4 Clithon small size nerite snails(I already have two large ones) that supposedly eat hair algae. They don't seem to go on any higher stem plans even if they are smaller. They mainly go on wood, glass and low stems(rarely).

I am impatient and especially with two less Otos I don't see my cleanup crew handling this problem as such I decided to NUKE my tank.

A Few hours ago I added 1.5ml/Gallon Excel, I am running my outflow higher and into the centre of the tank and my Eheim nano skimmer on full blast near the surface for the next 24 hours for oxygenation. Hopefully I won't kill my shrimp or fish. @Deanna I hope your method works and doesn't kill my tank, so far no signs of distress from the livestock. The increased flow is amazing with my fish being blown around a bit.


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Last edited by cl3537; 03-04-2019 at 03:50 AM. Reason: Formatting
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post #9 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 03:23 AM
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Sorry about the fish loss. 1.6 ph drop Otos wont tolerate that for too long. Atleast in my experience, Otos are usually the first to show any ill response to co2. And your right about them coming in to LFS already have gone through major stress.
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post #10 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 03:37 AM Thread Starter
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Great looking tank. I say about few more months here at TPT and you will some how manage to get atleast 15 more species of plants in there. Have fun and enjoy the ride
Well you guys and your amazing Red and Purple plants and dutch scapes make it very tempting.
The first idea I had was to just tie/glue some red plants to the wood, I don't want to break up the green lawn yet. Any suggestions? I get a lot higher PAR on top of the wood(100+ par) and it might even help reduce algae there.

I suspect for Reds I will need a better light though with better color rendition. While my $40 Chihiros A601 seems to have more than enough PAR it washes out Dark Green to lighter green and wouldn't do well for reds. Also I have no idea what the PUR values are (won't unless I shell out $200 for a Seneye Reef) but I doubt it would be great. But I could no doubt grow them on top of the wood without issue I suspect.

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Sorry about the fish loss. 1.6 ph drop Otos wont tolerate that for too long. Atleast in my experience, Otos are usually the first to show any ill response to co2. And your right about them coming in to LFS already have gone through major stress.
Did you see a change in behaviour from them as a result of the changes in CO2?


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Last edited by cl3537; 03-04-2019 at 03:49 AM. Reason: typo
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post #11 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 03:56 AM
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there are red plants that aren't so light demanding. These are some, I am sure others will chime in and share more varieties. If you wanted to stick something on your wood near the light, there are many bucephalandras that show different colors when grown with high light.

Ludwigia sp red
Red tiger lotus
AR mini
Ludwigia Gladulosa


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post #12 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 03:58 AM
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Nice looking tank and great start on your tank journal!
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post #13 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 06:17 PM
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A Few hours ago I added 1.5ml/Gallon Excel, I am running my outflow higher and into the centre of the tank and my Eheim nano skimmer on full blast near the surface for the next 24 hours for oxygenation. Hopefully I won't kill my shrimp or fish. @Deanna I hope your method works and doesn't kill my tank, so far no signs of distress from the livestock. The increased flow is amazing with my fish being blown around a bit.
Report back, after Wed, and let us know how the hair algae is doing.
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post #14 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-04-2019, 08:46 PM
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1) I upped CO2, before I had just inline diffusor and pH drop from 8.2 to 6.8. ~24ppm CO2 max(kh=5). Now I am running it to ph drop of 6.6(~38ppm CO2).
How are you measuring your pH? Liquid test or calibrated probe?

The reason I ask is that you have something odd going on with your numbers. At KH of 5 your degassed pH of 8.2 seems unusually high. I would expect it to be somewhere around 7.6, based on ambient CO2 in the atmosphere. If you look at others with similar pH, you will see what I mean.

I would take a glass of water and let it sit out for a couple of days, and then test again. And if you don't have a calibrated probe, I would get one.

Do you use a drop checker? While they aren't highly accurate, they do provide a visual indicator to confirm what you are seeing with your measured values.

As to ferts, l don't have any experience with Thrive. If you are going to try and take this tank to the next level, I would highly recommend getting dry ferts so that you can control the ratios. Looks to me like PO4 is light in relation to NO3, and B is very high compared to everything else in the micros.

Of course, that depends how far you want jump down the rabbit hole.

I also have no experience with your light. One thing to keep in mind is that a 17G tank is not very tall. This has a huge effect on PAR, as the light is very close to the substrate compared to other tanks. Have you looked up the light to see if someone has posted PAR values at various depths? I would want to know what I am dealing with, as too much light is a prime cause of hair algae (and low CO2).

You mention that the flow is blowing the plants around. IME, that is not what you want. Good flow is a wide gentle flow. Do you normally have some surface agitation? Is so, that is good. You want high oxygen levels, as it allows you to take pH down further safely with CO2.

But all that said, the tank looks like a very nice start. Now it's tweaking things here and there to get a better balance. With the plants that are already affected, I would let them grow a bit. You said the new growth looks good and algae free. Let them get a bit taller, then remove the infected portions and replant.

Good luck and good to see you start a journal. I look forward to seeing how things progress from here.


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post #15 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-05-2019, 04:14 AM Thread Starter
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How are you measuring your pH? Liquid test or calibrated probe?

The reason I ask is that you have something odd going on with your numbers. At KH of 5 your degassed pH of 8.2 seems unusually high.
I don't beleive the error is with my measurement of pH, I will get a Marine pinpoint soon to check but my measured values are inline with the city reports. Greater the error in Kh is more likely, I don't think one should assume that everyone's Tap water fits the theory for RODI water with Carbonate equilibrium. I could have other forms of buffers or basicity in my water that raises my pH in addition to Carbonates.

Quote:
Do you use a drop checker? While they aren't highly accurate, they do provide a visual indicator to confirm what you are seeing with your measured values.
I run CO2 24/7 my pH doesn't fluctuate except after a water change so I don't see a need for a drop checker.
I will get a pH probe just to check my water pH more accurately, but I am still more basic than carbonates alone so I have to get advice on whether that is likely to underestimate my CO2 from ph drop.

While I could beleive my pH drop range could be 6.5 - 6.7 given the accuracy of the API test that really doesn't change things much for me in terms of having enough ppm CO2 for my plants which could be in the 30 - 50ppm range roughly.

Quote:
As to ferts, l don't have any experience with Thrive. If you are going to try and take this tank to the next level, I would highly recommend getting dry ferts so that you can control the ratios. Looks to me like PO4 is light in relation to NO3, and B is very high compared to everything else in the micros.
I agree I want to order dry ferts, if you can show me a table of EI Micro dose targets that would be helpful I didn't find a reference. I know my Phosphates are low so I am trying to source Potassium MonoPhosphate in Canada or wait for my uncle to bring me dry ferts from NilocG.

Do you suggest these or somewherelse? EI based NPK + CSM+B - NilocG Aquatics

The Boron is a bit high because I am not dosing Calcium as it is already in my water at 31ppm I could add a bit of Ca and Mg which would put me closer to other people's ratios but not sure it will make a differece unless I see Ca2+ deficiency or Mg2+ deficiency. I am also not sure of the EI targets for Mg2+, Ca2+.

Quote:
I also have no experience with your light. One thing to keep in mind is that a 17G tank is not very tall. This has a huge effect on PAR, as the light is very close to the substrate compared to other tanks. Have you looked up the light to see if someone has posted PAR values at various depths? I would want to know what I am dealing with, as too much light is a prime cause of hair algae (and low CO2).

I don't have my own measured par values I estimated them from here.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/1...ffordable.html

12" from substrate is 130par I run mine at 60% dimmed which is 78par. But I am actually 13 - 14 inches from my substrate so a little less than that so I guesstimated 65PAR at centreline and less in the corners. The raised wood would likely be in the 100+ par range.

Quote:

You mention that the flow is blowing the plants around. IME, that is not what you want. Good flow is a wide gentle flow. Do you normally have some surface agitation? Is so, that is good. You want high oxygen levels, as it allows you to take pH down further safely with CO2.
Thanks will keep that in mind.

Quote:
But all that said, the tank looks like a very nice start. Now it's tweaking things here and there to get a better balance. With the plants that are already affected, I would let them grow a bit. You said the new growth looks good and algae free. Let them get a bit taller, then remove the infected portions and replant.
Thanks for the positive feedback.

Overall though I blocked sunlight from behind the tank and I am relatively certain that was the start and end of my algae problems. I have to move the tank sooner rather than later, for now I put foam mats behind the tank to block sunlight.

Quote:
Good luck and good to see you start a journal. I look forward to seeing how things progress from here.
Thanks for your feedback I appreciate your detailed comments.

Last edited by cl3537; 03-07-2019 at 03:46 AM. Reason: I should have been more polite :)
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