Cl3537's Very Green 17G - Page 8 - The Planted Tank Forum
 187Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #106 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-28-2019, 02:46 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
Xiaozhuang's Avatar
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South east asia
Posts: 1,214
Send a message via MSN to Xiaozhuang
Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
It's what happens in the water column that matters.
That's why soil is useful... its localized, have different stratifications/layers, separated somewhat from water column chemistry. In your water column, all plants compete for the same dose, in soil, roots have their own areas. Ammonia - far more effective in the substrate than the water column...
Discusluv likes this.

Regards, Dennis [
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
]
47g Journal of sorts
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Xiaozhuang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #107 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xiaozhuang View Post
That's why soil is useful... its localized, have different stratifications/layers, separated somewhat from water column chemistry. In your water column, all plants compete for the same dose, in soil, roots have their own areas. Ammonia - far more effective in the substrate than the water column...
@Xiaozhuang I am starting a new scape soon with inspiration from your diorama style. Still playing with hardscape configurations, it is difficult to get fine detail and depth into a (ADA 60p clone) 60cm X 30cm tank is much more limiting. My thumb has calouses from breaking up lava rock with a hammer and flathead screwdriver.

I will have practically no tall stems in the new scape unless I just play around with some at the back, so dosing very lean is definitely the way I will go and if any foreground palnt seems hungry I will use root tabs maybe use your osmacote with wrapping roots around it method. I have thrive caps which I hope to use for this purpose.

Just curious though have you had any experience with dosing say 0.2ppm (N) daily from Urea or Ammonia in the water column?, I was planning on using Tropica Specialized for this purpose although I have all the dry ferts to make up my own if necessary.
cl3537 is online now  
post #108 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 03:49 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by ipkiss View Post
You're confusing the starting point or the example point with the "method". Could the starting point or example points be more refined as you've requested? Sure. Maybe the share your dosing thread could turn into that. Or maybe it's just a bunch of useless cases of "correlation, not causation." Could Tom be a little less adamant about excess not a problem? I'll concede that.

But the "method" is still sound. Even pps-pro "simplified" shares this method by including water changes to "reset" the amounts of nutrients. It just has lower amounts.
I don't beleive any method is sound if its based on the assumption that "excess" is not harmful to plants(can stunt) or a catalyst for algae.
The Estimative part(if you can't even measure it) and water changes won't fix it if the maximum target is much too high to begin with.
When your plant uptake is <1ppm NO3 daily you aren't measuring NTUs easily you just must start much much leaner.


It becomes very complicated and unproven when you get into which excess to look for and plant specific. Maybe macros in excess aren't such a problem(within reasonable ranges) but Micros clearly are and that has not been published, oh what a uproar from EI fanboys if that became proven.

Plant deficiencies are hard to diagnose, try plant excess, I bet only a few dozen people on this board even know what to look for and most aren't active posters anymore.


Compounding that problem is if your starting guess was way off, is that Tom Barr for 14+ years and most of his disciples refuse to understand that other tanks don't have a buffer of hungry stems to remove organics and buffer the system, it doesn't matter what you do with light or CO2 you won't optimize the tank without reducing dosage or increasing plant mass. Sure maybe you can slowdown Algae and everythingelse by lowering light but that is a bandaid and not a solution.

Last edited by cl3537; 04-30-2019 at 04:07 PM. Reason: ...
cl3537 is online now  
 
post #109 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 04:25 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
@cl3537,

I climbed down from EI-type levels 6-8 months ago, but I do think that they can work in the right light/CO2 setup (it did work for me).
For me it can work with the right PLANT setup.

Quote:
When making a radical nutrient change, such as moving away from high-end EI levels, I found it much more difficult than simply removing it from the water column. I spent over six weeks not dosing anything other than very low traces (even below Tropica's levels). It is amazing how much plants can store due to luxury uptake and other aspects.
Unfortunately you and @Greggz @burr740 are right and even in my small tank with active substrate it may take weeks if not months. I don't have time to wait I'd rather enjoy my tank so the new scape won't be pushed off much longer. I may try planting some of the old rotala stems in the scape temporarily to see how they do but I don't want to wait on this tank.

Quote:

Then, I figured enough was enough, so I started very low level increases in micros and simply monitored NO3, PO4 and K to hold them in the 5/.5/5 ppm area and GH in the 2 dGH area (nudging if needed). dKH is below 1. The idea was to allow the plants to drain their reserves, slowly, while ensuring a minimum reading of the macros. I'm still in this stage. My TDS levels hover in the 60 ppm area to give you an idea of how low my water column dosing is. My plants look the same as they did with EI (and I've always been pleased with them).
Yep I get that, its why monitoring changes in healthy systems may take a long time before things start to crash or improve. That is why I question the conclusions drawn by Tom Barr about excess the observation period may not have been long enough.

Quote:
My perspective is that we might do better to establish our light (PAR/PUR and photoperiod), CO2, circulation, gas exchange, cleaning and husbandry and say: "That's my setup."
Well I'm not thrilled to see no results for 3 months, but thats essentially what led me to a much stronger conclusion that its ferts that are the problem.
I would have preferred to learn about Rotalas and Pogostemon a lot earlier on though. The goal wasn't to do experiments for the hobby it was to have a healthy tank!

Quote:
, approach non-CO2 nutrients from the low end, expanding their use as you wish, given your willingness to watch and wait. I'm not sure that 2-3 weeks is enough to say that a change is stable. I think you have to crawl toward it.
Agreed I won't have the patience to wait this out. Ideally I dose nothing or low, wait for plants to recover take a picture, then cake it on again watch plants deteriorate and take pictures.

Quote:
You might like investigating PPS. Although I'm not following it strictly, I'm much closer to it than typical EI ...right now.
I'm looking for the references for Marschner Ratio, is it N:P of 10:1?
That is the PPS-pro ratio is that derived from it? Thing is thought its still 0.35 Fe weekly and which I suspect is still much too much although daily will help mitigate it somewhat. Also no N source other than KNO3 not sure lean without reduced N is great.
Greggz and Deanna like this.
cl3537 is online now  
post #110 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 07:59 PM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Greggz's Avatar
 
PTrader: (2/100%)
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Novi, MI
Posts: 3,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
Maybe macros in excess aren't such a problem(within reasonable ranges) but Micros clearly are and that has not been published, oh what a uproar from EI fanboys if that became proven.
I agree with much of what you have been saying, but a blanket statement like above is why the factions were at war a few years back. You weren't here, but it was a bloody battle. Some were banned for life because it got so out of control.

At the time of the micro tox wars, most everyone was dosing CSM+B. Most likely that was the root of most problems. First is the type of iron used vs tank pH. Next is the nature of CSM+B itself, which is produced in huge vats to spread over crops.

Now let's just take B itself. I have tested various B levels and in my tank it has the narrowest effective range. Not enough is not good, and too much can be toxic. I tested the upper end and the reaction was swift and certain. So let's take a vat of CSM+B, then scoop out the pound you purchase, then scoop out the 1/16th or 1/32nd tsp most were using. What are the odds of the B in that fractional tsp to be in the correct range? IMO very, very slim.

And we could on and on with each individual micro. Some of these are a minute physical amount. Getting the same from dose to dose using CSM+B is highly unlikely.

To compound matters further EI dosing was listed as 0.5 Fe from CSM+B 3 times a week. That amount was way too high for most tanks, and could itself cause problems. It wasn't that long ago that Barr relented and the calculators brought it down to 0.2 x 3 times per week. Zorfox still has it as 0.5.

So yes, micros can cause toxicity. I believe much can be attributed to crummy micros, and some to flat out too high of guidelines. In general it's a more nuanced argument than simply stating micros are toxic.

And I actually don't know of too many EI fanboys around anymore. I started with EI, and found quickly that it was not the best dosing for my tank. It's taken years of experimenting to get to my current dosing, and I am still tweaking and searching for the optimal amounts. It's funny those guys are still at war with EI, yet few that I know are dosing EI.

I've been enjoying following your journey, and I think there are things to be learned there. Healthy debate and experimentation is good for the hobby. But it seems you may be buying in to a dogma with which you have no practical experience. No different than an EI fanboy who enters the hobby and preaches what he has not experienced. Just saying you may want to give things more time and see actual results in your tank before offering broad conclusions.

Heck, I have doing this for almost 4 years, and I don't have many broad conclusions. All I really know is what happens in my particular tank, and that's really all the perspective I can provide.

Last thing is that I would beware of folks performing micro experiments on a single species in a bare bottom tank. IMO, the only thing it proves is what happened with that particular set of parameters in that particular tank. Extrapolating that to another tank with a different set of everything is tricky business.

Good luck and I am very much looking forward to seeing what the next chapter brings.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
------------------
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Greggz is online now  
post #111 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-30-2019, 10:46 PM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: PA
Posts: 1,192
I should re-qualify part of my statement about dramatically reducing my dosing. Shortly after I turned off the nutrient gusher, my Dwarf Sag began turning glassy, rotted and diminished greatly (never turning white). I suspected iron, but ruled it out since I was dosing .2 ppm gluc daily and, instead, suspected N. I was willing to live with this given my overall objective to reduce and the fact that all other plants were still thriving. A few months later, I switched to .05 ppm daily but moved to DTPA - with no change in any plants. Two weeks ago, I decided to test the iron possibility and started dosing .06 ppm gluc daily on top of the .05 ppm DTPA (.11 ppm daily). The Dwarf Sag (a known iron hog) began a miracle recovery about a week later and has begun expanding again. no other plants showing any change ...yet. I don't plan to stay at these levels, as it was mainly a test. Besides, removing the dosing should test whether or not the iron is actually the issue.

So, I did violate @Greggz rule about performing micro experiments on a single species but, at least it isn't in a bare-bottom tank. [smiley face is supposed to be here]

Last edited by Deanna; 05-02-2019 at 01:19 PM. Reason: Correct numbers and vowels
Deanna is offline  
post #112 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 12:07 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
I should re-qualify part of my statement about dramatically reducing my dosing. Shortly after I turned off the nutrient gusher, my Dwarf Sag began turning glassy, rotted and diminished greatly (never turning white). I suspected iron, but ruled it out since I was dosing .2 ppm gluc daily and, instead, suspected N. I was willing to live with this given my overall objective to reduce and the fact that all other plants were still thriving. A few months later, I switched to .05 ppm daily but moved to DTPE - with no change in any plants. Two weeks ago, I decided to test the iron possibility and started dosing .06 ppm gluc daily on top of the .05 ppm DTPE (1.1 ppm daily). The Dwarf Sag (a known iron hog) began a miracle recovery about a week later and has begun expanding again. no other plants showing any change ...yet. I don't plan to stay at these levels, as it was mainly a test. Besides, removing the dosing should test whether or not the iron is actually the issue.

So, I did violate @Greggz rule about performing micro experiments on a single species but, at least it isn't in a bare-bottom tank. [smiley face is supposed to be here]
I have no idea what DTPE is but I do know what DTPA is Diethylenetriamine Pentaacetic Acid.
I also don't know in what world 0.06 + 0.05 equals 1.1, but I do know in this world that is 0.11ppm.

But even though I am confused I get what you are saying, in your tank which if it needs 0.77 Fe weekly must be full of demanding plants or at least enough of them to require higher dosing. Lower than you were dosing before but still much higher than my tank needs.
Greggz likes this.
cl3537 is online now  
post #113 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-01-2019, 12:55 AM
Wannabe Guru
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: PA
Posts: 1,192
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
I have no idea what DTPE is but I do know what DTPA is Diethylenetriamine Pentaacetic Acid.
I also don't know in what world 0.06 + 0.05 equals 1.1, but I do know in this world that is 0.11ppm.

But even though I am confused I get what you are saying, in your tank which if it needs 0.77 Fe weekly must be full of demanding plants or at least enough of them to require higher dosing. Lower than you were dosing before but still much higher than my tank needs.
LOL: well, as you can see, I was in a rush. I guess I'm more concerned about "he who hesitates is lost" than I am about "haste makes waste."

You got the numbers and vowels right. Now corrected.
Greggz and Immortal1 like this.
Deanna is offline  
post #114 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-05-2019, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
@Deanna

Dry ferts at 7.5/2.5/6.75 NPK and 0.22 Fe and over month ago, and then 80% water change and then only dosing Tropica as of a week ago with 1ml every other day with little changes.

So just like you I reduced ferts dramatically with little to no changes in plant health it may take a long time to see anything.

I decided to top all my Rotala, remove lower leaves of S. Repens and just left Pogostemon alone. Everything is growing, algae is mostly reduced, but growth doesn't look appreciably better maybe Pogostemon is getting a little more full but other than that I see little in the way of changes.

@burr740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Burr740
Macros look OK at 15/5/13
Please explain your thought process on these numbers.
First those are double my dosing, those were my targets based on 50% water changes and no uptake(I know my uptake is low).
Also why do you suggest Phosphates so high? Most people with few stems are dosing much lower Phosphates (N:P) 10:1 or higher any thoughts?


Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740
Fe DTPA - .06
Mn - .02
B - .01 (accounting for whats in the tap)
Zn - .017 (big difference in chelated Zn and non)
Mo - .001
Cu - .0012 (none listed on your chart? having zero will cause issues)
Ni - .00025 (dont need it if you're sure whats in the tap)
Could you please explain how you came up with these Micro numbers is it ratios of the Macros or somethingelse?
I have Cu, Ni and B in my tap showin from both 2012 and 2016 water reports
I am dosing Tropica right now but what I am interested in understanding is what the starting point guess should have been and how you estimated it.
cl3537 is online now  
post #115 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-05-2019, 10:26 PM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (122/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
@burr740

Please explain your thought process on these numbers.
First those are double my dosing, those were my targets based on 50% water changes and no uptake(I know my uptake is low).
Also why do you suggest Phosphates so high? Most people with few stems are dosing much lower Phosphates (N:P) 10:1 or higher any thoughts?
Oh right, you guys dosing for "targets" confuse me. 15/5/13 should be a good weekly dosing total, along with .1 Fe 3x per week. That's what I meant.

But...if your tank was rolling along just fine with Tropica, which is much lower than that, you may not even need that much. The plants will have to answer this.

Fwiw the Redfield Ratio, which is where the 10:1 thing comes from, pertains to N:P, not NO3:PO4. It was also done in the ocean as an experiment on algae growing. Some folks still think its some magic formula to keep algae away but I can assure you its not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cl3537 View Post
Could you please explain how you came up with these Micro numbers is it ratios of the Macros or somethingelse?
I have Cu, Ni and B in my tap showin from both 2012 and 2016 water reports
I am dosing Tropica right now but what I am interested in understanding is what the starting point guess should have been and how you estimated it.
The starting point for micros is Fe and its based on how much plants need to be happy.

Mn is somewhat relevant to Fe in that having a 4:1-2:1 Fe:Mn ratio seems to work best. Crop studies usually agree that 2:1 is best. In my aquarium experiments, using strongly chelated Fe and unchelated Mn, 3-4:1 seems to work better. Too much Mn will induce a Fe deficiency even when there's plenty of Fe present

Everything else is based on dosing the right amount, not specifically in ratio to something else, although everything else is relative. If you wanted to increase or decrease the micro recipe above, adjust everything the same across the board. That way the ratios stay the same even though we arent necessarily relying on some ideal ratio.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




burr740 is online now  
post #116 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-05-2019, 11:22 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Oh right, you guys dosing for "targets" confuse me. 15/5/13 should be a good weekly dosing total, along with .1 Fe 3x per week. That's what I meant.
Close to those amounts are what got me in trouble in the first place. 3ml X3 of Thrive weekly. However it may be that Thrive has too much Fe and Mn and it wasn't Macros at all as I said before.

(Assuming 15 Gallons of Water)

NO3 17.9697
Po4 3.3512
K 12.8159
N 4.0577
P 1.0929
Ca 0.0317
S 0.8559
Fe 0.6657
Mg 0.5072
Cu 0.0003
B 0.0127
Mn 0.2663
Mo 0.001
Zn 0.006

Quote:

But...if your tank was rolling along just fine with Tropica, which is much lower than that, you may not even need that much. The plants will have to answer this.
Tropica Dosing (6ml weekly).

N 1.416 (6.26 NO3 or 1.82 NH4+)
P 0.106 (0.33 PO4)
Mg 0.412
K 1.088
S 0.962
Fe 0.073
Mn 0.041
B 0.004
Cu 0.006
Mo 0.002
Zn 0.002
Cl 0.528


Quote:
Fwiw the Redfield Ratio, which is where the 10:1 thing comes from, pertains to N:P, not NO3:PO4.
This is the first time I've some across that name. A quick search tells me its probably not relevant, not worrying about BGA for low ratios <10 such as yours.

However Tropica dosing is 13.4:1 N:P while your suggest dosing is like 2:1! (Yes they have different sources Tropica is rumored to be NH3/NH4+)

The question really becomes does more PO4 reduce Algae or it it required for N uptake and if so in what ratio?

[IMG]
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-wC_amYj5r6.../rr_table2.PNG
[/IMG]

Quote:
The starting point for micros is Fe and its based on how much plants need to be happy.
If Tropica working 9 months was any indication, I would say you aren't even near that ballpark.

Quote:
Everything else is based on dosing the right amount, not specifically in ratio to something else, although everything else is relative. If you wanted to increase or decrease the micro recipe above, adjust everything the same across the board. That way the ratios stay the same even though we arent necessarily relying on some ideal ratio.

Last edited by cl3537; 05-06-2019 at 12:53 AM. Reason: ...
cl3537 is online now  
post #117 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 01:17 AM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (122/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,445
If Tropica works well why not just use it, or clone it


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




burr740 is online now  
post #118 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 02:02 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Maryland Guppy's Avatar
 
PTrader: (9/100%)
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Arnold
Posts: 3,092
Got my vote to clone it if it works!
Greggz likes this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Growing is not that difficult.
Maryland Guppy is online now  
post #119 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 02:14 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
If Tropica works well why not just use it, or clone it
Its a 17g I have 9 months worth of the original and it cost me $10 USD.
I also bought Urea thinking I might try Happi's clone recipe but that will have to wait for the new scape.
Greggz likes this.
cl3537 is online now  
post #120 of 137 (permalink) Old 05-06-2019, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Montreal, Quebec
Posts: 504
Topped all the Rotala, new growth definitely looking better on Tropica vey lean dosing. 130 par at the substrate.


Bump: Pogostemon also looking better some stems getting yellow/red color par is 120+ at substrate and the taller ones are getting 150 +par.
Starting to get more full but the bottom is a crowded branched mess, most stems still stunted not growing well.

While this is interesting to watch the recovery its time for a teardown.

Greggz likes this.
cl3537 is online now  
Reply

Tags
None

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
green water for daphnia auban Fish 5 01-20-2014 06:13 AM
Green water algae issue scags Algae 9 03-23-2011 05:55 PM
Green Dust / Green spot Algae Billy_Bass Algae 3 10-01-2010 05:08 PM
ADA HQI Bulbs, 8000K VS 8000K 'Green' CmLaracy General Planted Tank Discussion 3 03-20-2008 05:13 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome