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post #61 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 08:33 PM
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Yessir, I have to have my surface agitation just right in order to balance my co2 with plants. I believed Dennis Wong goes over the details of proper circulation surface agitation with different shapes of tanks. Because my tank is almost a square shape I have less water in contact with air. My latest test done this weekend shows my kh 5, degassed ph 7.3 drop from co2 6.0 total 1 3. Water sat for 3 days before tested for degassed ph. Water changes are done with tap. It took me some time to get the balancing act in check. Hope this helps
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post #62 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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Yessir, I have to have my surface agitation just right in order to balance my co2 with plants. I believed Dennis Wong goes over the details of proper circulation surface agitation with different shapes of tanks. Because my tank is almost a square shape I have less water in contact with air. My latest test done this weekend shows my kh 5, degassed ph 7.3 drop from co2 6.0 total 1 3. Water sat for 3 days before tested for degassed ph. Water changes are done with tap. It took me some time to get the balancing act in check. Hope this helps
I have kH=5 but my pH is at 8 and I drop it to 6.5 - 6.6 but I am no closer to knowing how much CO2 is in my tank than before I had the pH monitor.

Edit: https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/gas_exchange.html

"For many planted tanks, especially smaller ones that are not too tall/narrow, having reasonably good gaseous exchange can simply be done if the flow pattern in the tank exchanged surface layer of water with deeper layers - this usually also provides some surface agitation."

"Lily pipes and spray bars
​The use of lily pipes or spray bars filter outputs that channel the flow output near the surface in a pattern that circulates the top layer of water (that contacts air) with deeper layers in the tank improves gaseous exchange significantly."

"The use of surface skimmers, which keep the water surface crystal clear of surface film and draw in the oxygen rich surface layer of water is also a good method. One again, circulating the surface layer of water (that contacts air) with deeper water.
I never run a tank without them; they are also easily hidden behind tall stem plants. "

Those are the three reasons I don't have oxygenation issues.
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post #63 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 10:57 PM
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Do you have a link I am interestedin reading about it. I have kH=5 but my pH is at 8 and I drop it to 6.5 - 6.6 but I am no closer to knowing how much CO2 is in my tank than before I had the pH controller.
https://www.advancedplantedtank.com/gas_exchange.html The "balancing act" that I am doing with my co2 is also based largely on Dennis's comments on his web site.
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post #64 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-18-2019, 11:52 PM
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"Lily pipes and spray bars
​The use of lily pipes or spray bars filter outputs that channel the flow output near the surface in a pattern that circulates the top layer of water (that contacts air) with deeper layers in the tank improves gaseous exchange significantly.
I've got to tell you, I love the look of those lily pipes, especially in a rimless set up like yours. And sounds like they are functional as well, creating good surface ripple.

Such a nice clean modern look. Makes me want to set up a small tank like that some time.
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post #65 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-21-2019, 06:39 PM Thread Starter
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I've got to tell you, I love the look of those lily pipes, especially in a rimless set up like yours. And sounds like they are functional as well, creating good surface ripple.

Such a nice clean modern look. Makes me want to set up a small tank like that some time.
Thank-you, yes the lily pipes are designed to only be an inch to 2 inches from the top of the tank and blend into the background so you get good surface agitation and the whole vortex effect.

They need to be cleaned often (for me weekly or biweekly) and if you want to complete the look the clear tubes have to be cleaned as well.
I am not even using the inflow lily I bought it doesn't have a surface skimmer and the glass lily with skimmer is almost 30cm and too big for the minimalist look.

I don't like any equipment in my tank, inline heather, inline CO2 reactor etc, I use temporary probes (pH, temperature etc.) to keep the look. For now I have kept an acrylic inflow + skimmer because it is a lot smaller than the glass ones(~30cm) but maybe in the future I will switch, but it doesn't have a skimmer which may hurt my O2 levels and cleanliness of the surface.

ADA has meticulous maintenance on theirs so it always looks great in their promotional photos I wonder if they use a skimmer and take it out for the "money shot" or if they don't need them somehow.
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post #66 of 137 (permalink) Old 03-29-2019, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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Still growing but unhappy S. Repens.

Still dosing about the same, I've added 6ppm Magneisum(Epsom) since about a week ago(14 total including 8 from TAP), haven't picked up my dry ferts yet, but I suspect even though I'm dosing ~0.6ppm Fe (its a mix of DTPA and ETDA) its Fe deficiency.

I dose Thrive 3X per week 3ml in ~15g of tank and add 3.5g Epsom. (I got them to fix the calculator for Thrive)





Tank is very dusty, Tropica powder after 1 year breaking down a bit after uprooting I did a complete uproot and replant the tops of my Pogostemon Erectus so tank will be dusty for a while. GSA on old leaves has been there for a while.

Leaves are not well shaped, down turned tips wavey((-Ca(31ppm in Tap!(or -B)? Mg(8 Tap + adding 6)?) possibly pale(-Fe) (Although dosing 0.66ppm/week I see a lot of Precipitate in Outflow its a mix of DTPA/EDTA so its probably precipitating out. Holes on older leaves possible (K) but those were old emersed leaves so discounting that.

I don't test PO4 or Fe as I've heard they are really inaccurate but I'm thiking I should definitely get a PO4 test kit.

Rotala not 100% either.




The GSA and GHA on older leaves was there from before at least that isn't growing anymore. But new growth and stems are still twisted and possible pale(although Rotala can be pale/pinkish at the top so not sure).
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Last edited by cl3537; 03-29-2019 at 04:45 PM. Reason: ....
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post #67 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 02:33 PM Thread Starter
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I was using Tropica Specialized before with low light, lower CO2 and while growth was slower especially S. Repens plants were healthy with few visual issues, I had little algae, everything green and healthy see first photo in my journal. Rotala had big firm thick leaves, pogostemon was a lot more full and bushier with thicker stalks , Monte Carlo had bigger more full leaves.

Then I moved the tank to a new house, switching to 'EI' first with Thrive (9ml per week) I had a ton of hair algae, some BBA, some GSA and unhappy thinning stems and a host of other problems. (18,3.4,13 NPK) (0.66 Fe) Weekly Dose.

Tanks was doing very poor I chalked it up to a lot of things, CO2(I raised it a little), Husbandry, Flow, PAR(got meter), light spectrum, CO2(got a pH meter) a little bit of sunlight etc etc. Unfortunately none of those things being changed turned things around.

Went to an insane husbandry schedule, ripped out and cleaned up a ton of plants, turned the light down to 60%, did an Algae Bomb @Deanna (which removed most of the hair algae), blocked the sunlight. But still new growth was not happy, and I still a little bit of Hair Algae growing. Left things a few weeks with meticulous pruning and cleaning(6+ HOURS PER WEEK) still things were not improving.

Changed the light to Twinstar 600S, moved the lily pipe for better flow, meticulously cleaned every aspect of the tank including the inline diffuser, every bit of tubing, things improved a little but not enough. I was cleaning the filter weekly and doing 60% water changes.

Then I reset, two 50%+ water changes and I switched to all dry Ferts 2-3 weeks ago.
(15/5/13 NPK) (0.45 Fe from DTPA, and pretty much @burr740 @Greggz Micros recipe)

Rotala is getting better but still a little stunted with some brown spots, Pogostemon branching and still badly stunted with some hair algae, S. Repens growing faster but still old leaves are getting Hair Algae.

Interestingly Rotala seems to always look better after a water change and lower fertilizer concentrations and worse by the end of the week.

Still not close to as healthy as they could be with many symptoms which cannot be explained by deficiencies its definitely a toxicity which is causing minor deficiencies but noone on TPT has made any diagnosis here despite me posting two threads on the subject.

The only thing that has grown a lot faster was S. Repens but old leaves inevitably get hair algae and other problems.

Summary:

Rotala is stunted, twisted.
S. Repens old leaves getting Hair Algae.
Pogostemon Erectus stunted badly and branching
Monte Carlo smaller leaves than before but generally okay.

I will post pictures below. Then I will put my new plan into place based on some useful advice from many experienced hobbyists I spoke to over the last two days.

The end Conclusion EI and excess Ferts has really had very deleterious effects on my tank. High plant mass equilibrium is very different from low plant mass tanks and EI is a very poor method of fertilization for my type of tank and plants.


I will do a full reset of my tank 3 / 50% water changes in the next day or so and switch back to Tropica Specialized Green, and I will keep the light at the ~100 par that I have now and report the results. I am writing this in hopes that others don't go through the extremely frustrating road I have gone on.
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post #68 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 03:25 PM
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You are not alone.

2-3 weeks may not be enough time to judge the new dry fert routine. A lot of these plants are still loaded up with too much or an imbalance of nutrients from the Thrive/EI days.

But ime most rotalas and especially pogo erectus does NOT like high ferts. No surprise there.

Macros look OK at 15/5/13

How much Fe did you dose when you say mine/greggz micros? .1-.15 3x per week should've been good. Any more than that could certainly cause issues with the pogo

How much Tropica are/were you dosing, in ML ?x per week
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post #69 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 04:19 PM
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2-3 weeks may not be enough time to judge the new dry fert routine. A lot of these plants are still loaded up with too much or an imbalance of nutrients from the Thrive/EI days. But ime most rotalas and especially pogo erectus does NOT like high ferts. No surprise there.
I usually agree with you so I'm somewhat surprised at your post, but you know as well as anyone that EI dosing is not a set level. You adjust it based on a tank's parameters. You don't just blindly dose. So all the tanks done with heavy hardscape and low plant mass can't use EI dosing as this OP would have you believe? The problems with OPs tank were far more than simply not having Pogo grow well. He had to nuke the tank. That's the fault of EI dosing? Not sure what Rotalas your referring to, but all mine have done great under heavy EI dosing. So it can't be that.
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post #70 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:03 PM
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Summary:

Rotala is stunted, twisted.
S. Repens old leaves getting Hair Algae.
Pogostemon Erectus stunted badly and branching
Monte Carlo smaller leaves than before but generally okay.

I will post pictures below. Then I will put my new plan into place based on some useful advice from many experienced hobbyists I spoke to over the last two days.
Interesting and looking forward to seeing where this goes.

In general, hard to judge on the performance of a few plants. S. Repens has never done well for me, don't know why. Same for P. Erectus. Will go along well, then suddenly melt. Rotala in general does well, but depends on the species. No luck either with some species like Ammania.

But that's not how I judge success. It's more to do with the broader scope of the tank, which for me is lots of fast growing stems, which is not for everyone.

You've also got a newer tank, and there are some growing pains. I wouldn't really be coming to any end conclusions yet.

But in general, yes, plant mass and plant selection can and will influence fert dosing. Hope you strike a good balance and find the right mix for your tank and your mix of plants.

Keep the updates coming and interested in seeing what comes next.


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post #71 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:15 PM
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I usually agree with you so I'm somewhat surprised at your post, but you know as well as anyone that EI dosing is not a set level. You adjust it based on a tank's parameters. You don't just blindly dose. So all the tanks done with heavy hardscape and low plant mass can't use EI dosing as this OP would have you believe? The problems with OPs tank were far more than simply not having Pogo grow well. He had to nuke the tank. That's the fault of EI dosing? Not sure what Rotalas your referring to, but all mine have done great under heavy EI dosing. So it can't be that.
Some folks get lucky and everything falls into place, many do not. The ones that do like to proclaim to everyone else that nutrients cant be the problem. Neither one can articulate exactly why something works or why it does not. There are many underlying factors that affect nutrient uptake, not the least of which is the balance of the nutrients themselves (Thrive, csmb, etc, works for some but not others).

You cant just say EI works or doesnt work. What are you even calling EI? Then you have different KH and PH levels, under which nutrients behave differently. Ca and Mg hiding in the background asserting a profound effect on things whether its high or low.

The best we can do is combine our own experience with the collective anecdotal reporting of everyone else in the hobby. And from a hoard of experienced plant growers that know what their looking at, and my own personal experience, I can assure you that generally speaking Lythracaea does better with low water column ferts. Pogo erectus certainly does.

Dont fall into the trap of parroting EI fanboy narrative that every problem is co2 and cant be ferts. "Dose EI and then nutrients dont matter" is the absolute dumbest statement thats ever been made in the hobby.
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post #72 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:33 PM
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Don't fall into the trap of parroting EI fanboy narrative that every problem is co2 and cant be ferts. "Dose EI and then nutrients dont matter" is the absolute dumbest statement thats ever been made in the hobby.
You are obviously taken a very defensive position assuming I am an EI fan boy which, if you want to talk about dumb things to say. If you've read any of my posts you would see I am open to different dosing techniques based on parameters and one's time spent with their tank, even specifying that EI type dosing works for MOST plants not all. It's all in the posts I've made. I have never, ever said EI dosing is the only way to go.

OP is making a statement is BOLD to not use EI because of what he experienced. He's got one tank a few months old, that's it, so he should draw sweeping conclusions on that method that you seemed to support by your post. The results of a few species possibility not doing well is not going to force him to nuke the tank. It's much more likely someone with little experience learning how to adjust things as we have all done when starting out. Doesn't matter what you call the fert routine.


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post #73 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:44 PM
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You are obviously taken a very defensive position assuming I am an EI fan boy which, if you want to talk about dumb things to say. If you've read any of my posts you would see I am open to different dosing techniques based on parameters and one's time spent with their tank, even specifying that EI type dosing works for MOST plants not all. It's all in the posts I've made. I have never, ever said EI dosing is the only way to go.

OP is making a statement is BOLD to not use EI because of what he experienced. He's got one tank a few months old, that's it, so he should draw sweeping conclusions on that method that you seemed to support by your post. The results of a few species possibility not doing well is not going to force him to nuke the tank. It's much more likely someone with little experience learning how to adjust things as we have all done when starting out. Doesn't matter what you call the fert routine.
I just said do not fall into that trap like many people do. Wasnt trying to sound defensive, but you did insinuate that OP's problems couldnt be nutrients but rather inexperience on his part.

My opinion, based on what plants he has, everything he said he's done, and what he's been using for dosing...yeah nutrients are very likely a big part of the problem


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post #74 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:49 PM
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The best we can do is combine our own experience with the collective anecdotal reporting of everyone else in the hobby. And from a hoard of experienced plant growers that know what their looking at, and my own personal experience, I can assure you that generally speaking Lythracaea does better with low water column ferts. Pogo erectus certainly does.
Great post Joe.

If I might add something, it brings to mind the thought of sticking with plants that like the soup you are serving. I have not seen a dosing scheme or set of parameters yet that will bring out the very best in every species.

If the rest of my tank is doing well, I'm not too concerned if something I try doesn't take well to it. Better not to chase the ones you can't grow, as many times something else will suffer. A good example is C. Furcata, which both of us saw decline as we lowered micros.

And yes, when people say EI dosing what do they mean? I'd say where many of us are at is pretty well removed from that, and it's an over simplification of most dosing strategies.

So getting back to @cl3537 , when you get things adjusted to your new parameters, I would try a variety of plants and see what sticks. And I wouldn't be too concerned about any single species. Some things will not do well, and you may never know why. If I was judged on my ability to grow AR mini, I would have been thrown off this board a long time ago!
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post #75 of 137 (permalink) Old 04-25-2019, 05:52 PM
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I just said do not fall into that trap like many people do. Wasnt trying to sound defensive, but you did insinuate that OP's problems couldnt be nutrients but rather inexperience on his part.

My opinion, based on what plants he has, everything he said he's done, and what he's been using for dosing...yeah nutrients are very likely a big part of the problem
I wasn't looking to pick it fight with you, I was just surprised at your post. I think you need to re-read my post. I didn't say it wasn't fert related I said it wasn't EI-related. My point being EI is not a set amount for all, it varies based on tank. Most that start a hi-tech tank for the first time have issues managing light, co2,and many of the other parameters you mentioned. As a result they change things which sometimes is difficult in terms of controlling algae, etc. This thread has been no different. A few species not doing well, shouldn't shut down an entire setup.


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