Keating1's 55G - Water Changes - Page 40 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #586 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-17-2020, 11:09 PM
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After installing the scale on the tank and a couple weeksí worth of taking notes, some interesting thoughts have come up. When posting or discussing dosing rates, why not list CO2 dosing in ppm? If one has a scale for the CO2 tank, itís simple to do.
The advantage with listing ppm are:

1. It correlates with how weíre listing other dosing parameters which is in ppm.

2. Itís easy to do, all one needs is a scale to weight the CO2 and regulator.

3. Itís more accurate of listing CO2 usage than another method Iím aware of. One method is via bubbles per minute, but this doesnít represent an accurate number because the amount of CO2 in an bubble varies with size and pressure, and thereís no practical way of measuring the size of an bubble, nor very few are measuring the pressure with accurate gauges. Another method is measuring by flow rates, which is also inaccurate also because of the combined inaccuracies of pressure gauges and flow meters, plus thereís conversion formulas due to pressure and temperature and calculations required to covert to STP as a common baseline. The other issue with flow rates is itís doesnít provide meaningful information. Itís like saying Iím dosing 2 teaspoons of KNO3 to my tank; thereís really not much you can do with this information unless one knows the tank size. Listing dosing rates in ppm tells one whatís being dosed regardless of tank size.

The equation for determining ppm is CO2 ppm = (grams used/grams water in system) x 1,000,000. The 1,000,000 is used to convert the value to ppm. Thereís 3785.41 grams of water per 1 gallon of water, so if youíre used to dealing in gallons the equation is now:

CO2 hourly ppm = [(grams CO2 used per hour/(3785.41 x system gallons)] x 1,000,000.

This equation can be further simplified by dividing 1,000,000 by 3785.41 as follows:

CO2 hourly ppm = (grams used per hour x 264.17)/system gallons.

Over the past couple of weeks my average CO2 hourly dosing rate is 32. ppm. My lights and CO2 are on 6 hrs/day so my daily dosing rate is 192 ppm. I donít believe we should be listing daily dosing rates as itís dependent on how long folks are running their CO2 system, instead we should be listing the ppm hourly rate.

Example Calculation based on my tank: Over a 13 day period the amount of grams used was 570 grams. CO2 flow is on for 6 hours per day, so grams/hr would be:

CO2 grams used/Hour = (570 grams/13 Days)/6 Hours per day = 7.3 grams/hour.

CO2 Hourly ppm = (7.3 x 264.17)/60 = 32 ppm

For determining the amount of grams used, I weighed the tank prior to CO2 coming on on the first day, and then weighed the tank just after CO2 went off on the last day. I did this over a 13 day period, and then took the average. This is more accurate as itís taking the average over a length of time. Typically, the scales being used will have drift; theyíre not high accuracy due to the low costs, but taking the value over an extended period gave me better data. For more accurate and consistent readings, I found it helps to center the CO2 tank on the scale.

There are some disadvantages. One has to purchase a scale. But scales are not expensive, the one Iím currently using is less than $40. If one happens to have a fish scale, this will work also. Most of these scales will have some inaccuracies. Iíve notice that around 10% of the time the scale may not register a change for an hour, but the next hours that changes may be doubled. Or a couple of days the grams used is very high or very low. But by taking the averages over longer periods in our calcs negates these day to day oddities.

One advantage Iíve notice with using a scale is itís easy to determine when a CO2 tank will be empty. To do this youíll need to know what the tank weighs empty with the regulator attached. If you know what the daily consumptions of CO2 is in grams, the current tank/regulator weight, and the empty weight then itís easy to calculate how many days are remaining in the tank. Trying to estimate using the pressure on the low pressure port of the regulator has never been accurate for me, itís sort of hit or miss.

If youíre thinking about purchasing a scale, make sure it has the capability of providing a live, continuous reading. What this means is the scale continuously shows the tank weight. If not, itíll be a hassle. As an example, some scales have an auto-off function mode that turns off the scale after two minutes. What happens is when you turn it on, youíll most likely have to remove the tank, wait for the scale to auto-calibrate and show a reading of zero, and then re-set the tank on the scale to obtain a reading. After two minutes when the unit shuts off, youíll have to start the whole process over. Having to remove the tank and replace it on the scale is a big headache. Most likely if the scale is battery operated only itíll have an auto shutoff function. Now the bad thing is I donít see when the manufactures list or show if the scale reads continuously in their product literature. The Smart Weight scale I purchased has continuous reading with the unit is plugged in to a receptacle via an AC/DC adapter, but it wonít do this if itís on battery power only.

Also, if one is purchasing a scale make sure it can read in Kg. Most digital scales can read output in both metric and imperial scales, but weights in metric are much easier to work with as opposed to imperial units.

If anyone is still awake and has actually read this, please provide your thoughts. Thanks!
So I read this, and I must admit, it 'seemed' too logical. My first thought was ambient room temperature, but quickly realized that would affect pressure, not weight. I now sit here pondering other points of failure and I can find none. Surely this method makes more sense and provides more usable information? I'm not terribly well-versed in this arena, but I am quite interested to see what others might come up with.

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post #587 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 04:14 AM
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Only question I would have is regarding incomplete dissolution. Maybe not an issue since you have a reactor but I get a pretty heavy mist with my in-line diffuser and I'd imagine some of those microbubbles pop and don't dissolve into the water.

In other words you're measuring the amount of CO2 that leaves the bottle and not the amount of dissolved CO2. Have you tested to see if the KH/pH method agrees with your weight method?

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post #588 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-18-2020, 08:41 PM Thread Starter
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Only question I would have is regarding incomplete dissolution. Maybe not an issue since you have a reactor but I get a pretty heavy mist with my in-line diffuser and I'd imagine some of those microbubbles pop and don't dissolve into the water.

In other words you're measuring the amount of CO2 that leaves the bottle and not the amount of dissolved CO2. Have you tested to see if the KH/pH method agrees with your weight method?

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With the reactor I'm using, all bubble get dissolved into the water column before they exit the reactor. Determining CO2 concentration using the KH/pH would just give me the estimated value of CO2 ppm concentration in the water, but may not correlate with the ppm dosing due to the unknown off-gasing and plant consumption of CO2. Out of curiosity I may try to take reading tomorrow every hour to see what the values are.


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post #589 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-22-2020, 07:38 PM Thread Starter
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Having an easy means of WC really makes one’s life easier in this hobby. If it’s easy, then one is most likely to perform the changes without hesitation. WCs are simple to perform with my aquarium. For draining the tank, I utilize one of the canister filters, the Eheim 4 +600. It’s outflow goes to a T-Fitting with two valves. The output of one valve goes to the aquarium and the output of the other valve goes to a drain line that goes outside and dumps water onto the roof. From there in goes down into the rain gutter, and then out to planter areas around the perimeter of the backyard. Using the canister creates a greater flow rate than if it was just gravity fed, with the cannister flow rate under gravity assist being about 3 GPM

For filling the aquarium, I pump water from the ground level RODI Shed via the Iwaki pump to the sump next to the aquarium, and from there it gets pumped into the tank via the Eheim 1260. The Iwaki pump is an MD-70RLT and flow rate to the sump is 3 GMP.

The complete WC takes around 20 minutes. Ten minutes to discharge 30 gallons, and another ten minutes to replace the 30 gallons.



Has anyone noticed that I really like labeling equipment!


Piping on the right is the drain line, and the piping on the left is incoming water from the RODI shed.



During vacations I’ll have friends do the WC. I’ve developed a check list for them to follow. Fortunately I’ve have not had any problems with WCs while I’m away!
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Last edited by Ken Keating1; 04-22-2020 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Grammar
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post #590 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-22-2020, 08:45 PM
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Having an easy means of WC really makes oneís life easier in this hobby. If itís easy, then one is most likely to perform the changes without hesitation.
+1.

I completely agree with this statement. More work up front, but much less work over the years.

I literally flip one switch to drain, and another one to fill. Makes water changes a breeze.

And very nicely documented. Well done sir!
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post #591 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-22-2020, 08:54 PM
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Excellent post Ken. Labeling is something most don't think about - until they have to have somebody else do the job.
Part of me wants to add another column to your Water Change Check List - how many seconds you have to complete the task before the next task becomes critical :-)

And I say that for a very specific reason. In my case, water is pumped from the 55g holding tank in the basement to a 10g tub under the 75g tank. This takes a bit of time so you usually do something else (kinda a bad idea). After so many minutes the 10g tub over flows. Makes a bit of a mess. Raises your blood pressure. Reminds you NOT to do something else the next time.
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post #592 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-22-2020, 09:33 PM Thread Starter
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Excellent post Ken. Labeling is something most don't think about - until they have to have somebody else do the job.
Part of me wants to add another column to your Water Change Check List - how many seconds you have to complete the task before the next task becomes critical :-)

And I say that for a very specific reason. In my case, water is pumped from the 55g holding tank in the basement to a 10g tub under the 75g tank. This takes a bit of time so you usually do something else (kinda a bad idea). After so many minutes the 10g tub over flows. Makes a bit of a mess. Raises your blood pressure. Reminds you NOT to do something else the next time.
Funny, I have basically the same arrangement as you do, I'm pumping from the 1st Floor to the 2nd floor into the sump. I have a audible high water alarm to prevent overflow and it's saved my tail a number of times. But I've had a couple of times where I've overridden the alarm, forgot I've overridden it, and then overflowed the sump. So this weekend I installed a 2nd high water alarm that I can't override. And sure enough not more than an hour later during the WC the 2nd water alarm went off. I guess I accidentally unplugged the 1st alarm during the 2nd alarm installation and didn't realize it!


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post #593 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-22-2020, 10:06 PM
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Funny, I have basically the same arrangement as you do, I'm pumping from the 1st Floor to the 2nd floor into the sump. I have a audible high water alarm to prevent overflow and it's saved my tail a number of times. But I've had a couple of times where I've overridden the alarm, forgot I've overridden it, and then overflowed the sump. So this weekend I installed a 2nd high water alarm that I can't override. And sure enough not more than an hour later during the WC the 2nd water alarm went off. I guess I accidentally unplugged the 1st alarm during the 2nd alarm installation and didn't realize it!
LOL, that sounds exactly what I need to do - install TWO alarms! The only thing I have going for me is when the holding tank over flows, it spills into the aquarium stand. Did I mention the floor of the stand is a single sheet of aluminum? And it has a 1" border all the way around it which is also covered by aluminum. And then there's the floor drain - for when I get really forgetful.
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post #594 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-26-2020, 10:52 PM
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The sump was an afterthought for my aquarium, and more of an experiment. After 3 months of adding daily water to the tank due to evaporation, I decided I wanted a sump as itís easier to maintain water level with a sump. In addition, I wanted to be able to perform very high filtering, down to the 1 micron level, with quick access to the filter pads. Most folks think of a sump as having biological filtration, but thatís not the case with my sump. I could use biological filtration, but since I already had two canisters I felt I didnít need to have any more. I highly recommend a sump, it keeps the water level in the tank at the same level, much easier to clean out filter pads, hides equipment (heaters, pH probes, filter media), I believe itís definitely worth it. The sump I have is a 20-gallon high aquarium, 24Ē long, 12.5Ē depth, 16.75Ē high.

The sump is next to the stand. I figured I was going to be doing a lot of fiddling and experimenting the first year, so that was fine because I wanted quick access. Plus there wasnít enough room in the aquarium stand for a sump. Doesnít look the greatest, but I want to upgrade to a larger tank with a custom sump cabinet next to it. Hopefully this will happen sometime in the near future.

The aquarium overflow is a siphon type, a Lifereef Nano. Itís quiet, but not as quiet as I would like. Eshopps makes them also. The siphon wonít break during a power flow, so thereís no problems there. The only way the siphon will break is if it gets a lot of air bubbles in the siphon tube, which has happened a few times if I reduce the flow to low levels. What happens during low flows is the water flow in the siphon pipe between the tank and overflow box is not fast enough to pass bubbles so they float to the top of the tube. As the air bubbles settle to the top they make a bigger and bigger bubble and eventually the air bubble is large enough to restrict water flow, at which time water canít exit the tank at the same speed as the intake water, thus the tank overflows. The only reason I use low flow is when the kids are home and sleeping in the room; the low flow mode is much quieter than the high flow mode. Ideally, Iíd get a Modular Marine overflow, and pipe it bean-animal style. ( https://blog.marinedepot.com/educati...mal-overflow)I just purchased one for another tank, very nice, high quality, but it would require drilling for the 55-gallon tank which is all tempered glass so it canít be done.

The sump pump is an Eheim 1260. During normal operation flow is about 2.5 gallons per minute. From the pump water goes to the Variable Velocity Reactor (VVR), then back to the tank. The VVR is described in Post # 1 of this journal

For filtering, also see Post # 1, for a detailed description of how I filter. At first, I tried socks, of which I really didnít like as I found them cumbersome to clean, plus I couldnít fine the range of filtering I wanted, plus expensive. The pads are much easier, plus I can easily get a variety of filtering values. I replace the pads every week.

For Automatic Topping Off (ATO) Iím using a Float Valve (US Plastics, #23178 PVC mini adjustable float valve with 1/4Ē MIPT Extended Inlet), a Tank (US plastics # 4029 Tamco 7 gallon natural polyehtlylene tank Ė 10Ē Dia x 20Ē High ) and a ATO Tank Lid: (US Plastics # 4034 Tamco Natural Standard Cover for 7 gallon tank)
My evaporation rate is about 3.5 gallons/week, so the ATO tank is good for two weeks.

Iím also using the sump to raise rainbow fish fry. Thereís some wood with Java Moss and a Asta 20 light. The rainbow fish are laying in the eggs in the aquarium, and when they hatch some end up in the sump. When I replace the filter pads I let water flow out of the filter pad chamber into the main portion of the sump. I was not aware the fish were breeding until I started to notice fry in the sump. Iím having some success with this, itís not perfect, but it seems to be working with a minimal amount of effort.







For the float valve I wanted it to be protected so nothing in the tank could hit it and hold in open, plus I wanted to have a means to easily adjust the water height so I built a Plexiglas enclosure such that I could quickly move the float switch up or down.


Really impressive build thread and great results on the tank! I am envious of how nice your tank looks.



Question on the sump - how does the water flow into the filter pad section? If I'm looking at your photo correctly it does not look like the overflow from the tank flows into the filter pad section. Does the water first enter a settling chamber and then overflow into the pads?
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post #595 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-26-2020, 11:25 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks @fftfk !

Water flow from the overflow goes to the gate valve then to small chamber to slow down the water velocity, then to the pad chamber. It's open under the pads, where water flows into the sump. The pads are supported with egg crate. The photos below of the pad chamber may help with the explanation.



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post #596 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 01:40 AM
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Ok - I see how that works. I thought that was part of the lifereef overflow but it is in the sump. It also answers my second question about which filters you are buying from dudadiesel. When you are talking about the microns I thought you were referring to a poret foam type filter. I will be reworking my sump eventually and will likely "steal" some of your ideas (like the CO2 reactor to start!). Thanks!
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post #597 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 01:58 PM
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Thank you for posting the water change details, Ken. Really helpful. Love the specificity, as alway, and the labeling too!! Using the canister filter is a key part, as it enables you to remove water from the tank directly, as it were. Curious what folks do who have only sumps, as once the water level is below the overflow, there has to be some other way of removing water directly from the tank, if that is what one wants to do. Anyway, fantasies continue of a future larger tank.

Off topic:
Obsession of late has been getting wifi to my studio, because I've been requested to start teaching studio classes from there. Taught university classes remotely before, but they weren't studio classes. We'll see how it goes. Having to use Point to Point wireless bridge, as trenching cable over the distance would be a real nightmare. And... 5 inches of fresh snow here this morning, and it is still snowing heavily. Life in the high altitudes of VT.
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29 gallon, pH controlled CO2, Current USA + Pro LED, Eco-complete, Eheim Classic.

20L gallon, same configuration with HOB filter, suffering from tank size envy.


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Last edited by DanG; 04-27-2020 at 02:00 PM. Reason: word correction
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post #598 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-27-2020, 04:00 PM
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Hi, one question I always have with the automatic water change systems is, how do you keep GH/KH constant?

Today I adjust replacement water to target in a big bucket and I would assume you would use the rodi tank for that . But how to do that automatic? Would you run a reactor for GH/KH but how to turn off? Or have premixed high GH /KH solutions that you would dose with a controller?
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post #599 of 605 (permalink) Old 04-28-2020, 01:04 AM Thread Starter
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@fpn: I premix the RODI water with CaSO4 and MGSO4 to set the general hardness.

@DanG: Wow, 5" on snow is hard to fathom, temps here in the high 80's, about 15 degrees above average. Wish we had rain here and snow in the mountains, we need the water.
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post #600 of 605 (permalink) Old 07-05-2020, 09:32 PM
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Keating1's 55G - Water Changes

@Ken Keating1 What's your take on UV Sterilizers? Do you run one occasionally as needed on a schedule or other? I couldnít see one in your journal and am simply curious. Thanks, it's always a pleasure to read your posts.



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