A Tutch of Dutch in 120G - Page 7 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #91 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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What the tall plant in the back right?
Gymnocoronis spilanthoides

Edit: I had never heard of it before. Saw it in stock with SKA when I did my last order. Thought I'd give it a go.

Grows really well. Stays straight as an arrow. Doesn't need a ton of light and handles crowding well. Also grows well emersed if allowed to do it's thing haha
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post #92 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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I've seen a couple people post their micros lately in some of the journals I follow, so I decided to do a comparison. I used micros from @slipfinger, @burr740, and @Greggz. I put in the numbers for @Quagulator too, but they are pretty much the same as the ones for Greggz. Also, I didn't have Joe's exact micro recipe, so I did his as a ratio to slipfinger's based on this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipfinger View Post
Fe - .3
Mn - .075
B - .06
Zn - .06
Mo - .002
Cu - .003
Ni - .0005
Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Ive gone down to .2 3x for the past couple of weeks. Same recipe mix, just dosing 10 ml instead of 15

Here's what I came up with (the % column shows how much more I am dosing than that person):


NOTE - Turns out I used the micro numbers from my previous mix, not my current one. I'm currently a lot closer to Greggz, but I think the chart is still pretty surprising.

I was pretty shocked at how much more I was dosing than Joe (250% more Ni!). Now, those numbers might be a bit off since they are all just based on a 3:2 ratio between Joe and slipfinger's numbers. But even if they're wrong, dosing 75% more Fe/week seems pretty high!

I think I might cut out a dose or two per week and see what happens.
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post #93 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MCFC View Post
I've seen a couple people post their micros lately in some of the journals I follow, so I decided to do a comparison. I used micros from @slipfinger, @burr740, and @Greggz. I put in the numbers for @Quagulator too, but they are pretty much the same as the ones for Greggz. Also, I didn't have Joe's exact micro recipe, so I did his as a ratio to slipfinger's based on this:
Very interesting post, and lots of food for thought there.

As noted, I am dosing the highest out of that group. Now keep in mind that Burr was dosing at my levels for quite a spell too. He noted that some plants loved it, but others not so much. So part of the process is finding the sweet spot for your group of plants.

And you need to look at micro dosing in relation to everything else. I'm also dosing more macros than anyone on that list too. So is my micro dosing driving demand for macros? Maybe.

In any event, just shows that micros are not the bogeyman. If you saw some of the tiny levels we were dosing a couple of years ago (CSM+B), you'd gasp at how little it was.

Things are going very well in my tank right now, so I hesitate to make any sudden lane changes. But my next step is going to be reducing everything proportionally at once. But very, very slowly, and continue with daily micros and front end loading macros.
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post #94 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 04:27 PM
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Interesting graphic MCFC. Yeah I was dosing Greggz levels for several months with good results for the most part.

Vin did this too for several months in his 180 (Saxa Tilly/Pikez) Using v13.15 which I make for him.

So that's a fairly tried and true high dosing recipe.

It's basically what slipfinger and myself (until recently) are dosing weekly, except double only 3x per week.

I also did .2 and .25 daily each for a few months. Still good for the most part, except for a few plants that havent done great since going up from around .15 3x per week a while back.

Plants like didiplis, mayaca, h araguaia, myrios, used to be bullet proof but all have been having various issues over the past year or so. So I got to looking back at what I was dosing when they were all doing well and saw that micros were a lot lower.

During the high phase, which Im calling .15 daily and up, macros have been up and down at various levels with not much change in the problem plants. Except for PO4 which exasperated the issues (and caused more) at around 7/week and up.

The one constant was higher micro levels. Which is why Im currently in a reducing phase.

The aquasoil tank is getting .1 3x per week. All the 20s are getting .15 3x. The two 75's with higher light/co2 and plant mass are getting .2 3x.

And guess what, the problem plants mentioned above are all doing better. Nutrient hogs like pantanal continue to thrive. I havent seen any negatives from lowering micros, only positives.

Fwiw Vin has experienced many of the same issues I have over the past year or so, the good and the bad. Except for his Kill Tank shenanigans we're usually doing the same thing, micro-wise, in our main tanks. His 180 with aquasoil is currently getting .1 3x

Man I really need to update my journal...
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Last edited by burr740; 11-27-2018 at 04:40 PM. Reason: .
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post #95 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 07:57 PM
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Thanks for doing that Stu, interesting to see the side by side comparison.

I've been using the above micro dosing in the rimless for 5 weeks now. Pogo erectus is not a happy camper. Unless it improves over the next 3 weeks my plan is lower micros to .2 Fe 3x a week and see if it improves any. I said I wasn't going to chase a single plant, but pogo erectus is earmarked for a spot in my current layout.

On a side note, I originally started out dosing (listed below) 4x a week in the rimless, but lots of things where not happy. Not one to waste a batch of micros I moved this mixture, mold and all over to the 75 and one of the 40's with AquaSoil and Pogo is growing just fine in both tanks. Also Ambulia grows so much nicer in the 75 then it does in the rimless.

Fe .2ppm
Mn .05ppm
B .073ppm
Zn .05ppm
Mo .00175ppm
Cu .001ppm
Ni .0005ppm
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post #96 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 08:13 PM
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I do the same thing, I have a spreadsheet that compares what other's are doing. I just wish the others would find the optimum dosing parameters and stop changing their dosage rates!!! LOL
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post #97 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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@slipfinger - Are you still frontloading NPK 25-7-30 weekly?

@burr740 - I think you're at 3.5ppm PO4 weekly. Is that right? What are you other macros at these days? And are you still dosing 60% post water change and then two 20% doses during the week?
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post #98 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 09:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MCFC View Post
@slipfinger - Are you still frontloading NPK 25-7-30 weekly?
Yes and no. I am dosing 40ml after water change along with two more 30ml doses throughout the week. So if I change water on Sunday, my macro dosing is done on Thursday. If that's considered front end loading, then yes I am, if not then no I'm not. lol...

I am also only dosing 6ppm P/week now.
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Last edited by slipfinger; 11-27-2018 at 11:34 PM. Reason: edit
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post #99 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-27-2018, 10:24 PM
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75s: 25/4.5/32
20s: 20/4/27
Aquasoil 50: 15/4/22

60% post WC and two more 20% doses

Without writing another novel, I dont think 3.5 was quite enough PO4 in the big tanks. Even though the initial (drastic) reduction from 8 was great, once the levels evened out it seemed a little low. This is relatively speaking based on the response in all tanks
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post #100 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 01:22 AM Thread Starter
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Got BBA? Time to trim! (and maybe give up on my erio LOL!)












All the BBA is on old growth. I think once all my stems are healthy and I've trimmed away all the bad stuff then it should ease up on my bulbs and crypts.

In other news... CO2 tank ran out today and I didn't have time to get it refilled before the place closed. Really glad I have full extra tanks in moments like these . Perfect time to hook up my new 3" reactor and try to get my flow meter working again haha.
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post #101 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 12:34 PM
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One thing I have noticed on most heavily dosed tanks, is that they all have/had BBA. Maybe too much Po4?
I have meet every algae that exist, but never BBA and I think it's due to I never dosed so much Po4.
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Last edited by AgMa; 11-30-2018 at 12:35 PM. Reason: Edit
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post #102 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 01:40 PM
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One thing I have noticed on most heavily dosed tanks, is that they all have/had BBA. Maybe too much Po4?
I have meet every algae that exist, but never BBA and I think it's due to I never dosed so much Po4.
Never had BBA (maybe the odd clump)

I dose 6ppm PO4 weekly plus a heavy fish load... very high light. I don't think it's PO4 related.

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post #103 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
Never had BBA (maybe the odd clump)

I dose 6ppm PO4 weekly plus a heavy fish load... very high light. I don't think it's PO4 related.
Just a thought. Every journal I follow (Burr, Gregg, Slipfinger) I see BBA issues.
Maybe it's also some sort of imbalance.
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post #104 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 01:48 PM
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Just a thought. Every journal I follow (Burr, Gregg, Slipfinger) I see BBA issues.
Maybe it's also some sort of imbalance.
I think it is flow related. It seems to grow where flow is the highest, in my very limited experience with it. Imblances are impossible to diagnose these days.

Every aspect of a tank, every nutrient, is somehow connected.
"Balancing" things is nearly impossible.
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post #105 of 135 (permalink) Old 11-30-2018, 03:48 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AgMa View Post
One thing I have noticed on most heavily dosed tanks, is that they all have/had BBA. Maybe too much Po4?
I have meet every algae that exist, but never BBA and I think it's due to I never dosed so much Po4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgMa View Post
Just a thought. Every journal I follow (Burr, Gregg, Slipfinger) I see BBA issues.
Maybe it's also some sort of imbalance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
I think it is flow related. It seems to grow where flow is the highest, in my very limited experience with it.
The source of BBA is a tough one to narrow down. A quick search of TPT and you'll find people blaming CO2, too much/not enough flow, a fat racist orange old man, PO4, Fe, all micros, organics, and refugee invaders.

In my experience it is related to flow and organics. I find it likes very low flow and very high flow, but no so much in between. It grows on the glass in places with low flow. Grows on lower leaves that are getting crowded out and getting low flow. But also grows directly on the return outlet for my canisters, the "intake" for my circulation pump (when I was using it), and the airline that runs to my airstone, and is worst closest to the stone, where the bubbles stream passed it fastest.

I have found three ways of dealing with it:

1. Do nothing. I've had a couple tanks where it popped up pretty badly, just kept with my normal routine, and it went away after a few months. Don't know why it started, don't know why it left.

2. H2O2 and/or Excel. Both work pretty well at killing it, and it's fun to see it fizz and then turn purple and die. Doesn't address the underlying cause.

3. Better maintenance (plus maybe some H2O2 or Excel ). Vacuum substrate, trim old dead algae'd leaves, clean filters regularly, optimize flow (not too much, not too little) around entire tank.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Quagulator View Post
Every aspect of a tank, every nutrient, is somehow connected.
"Balancing" things is nearly impossible.
I agree with the first statement, but am not on board with the second haha.

Finding the balance isn't easy, but it's far from impossible. Mulder's Chart is a great place to spend some time if you're struggling with nutrient balance.
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