33 gallon "peer pressure" Dutch attempt - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 06:07 PM Thread Starter
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My old thread got ruined because of Photobucket and I lost interest so here's kind of a new journal!

33g 24x18x18 Landen rimless tank on ADA style stand I built myself and laminated white.

Eheim 2217 and koralia nano 240 for flow.

ADA aquasoil

Kessil a160we on 10 hour light cycle. 2 hour ramp up and 1 hour ramp down so only 7 hours of full intensity.

8 otocinclus
7 Rummy Nose Tetras
22? Cardinal Tetras
Snails..

pH 6.5
GH 6
KH 3

Working towards GH 5 and kh 2

Plants:

Bacopa caroliniana
Ludwigia SP super red
Ludwigia Rubin
Mystery Ludwigia?
Blyxa japonica
Rotala Indica bonsai
Staurogyne repens
Ammania Gracilis
Pogostemon Kimberley
Cyperus helfiri
Alternanthera Reineckii Mini
Lobelia Cardinalis
Cryptocoryne Green
Clinopodium Brownei
Eleocharis Parvula
Rotala rotundifolia
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post #2 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 06:54 PM
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Alright looking forward to this. Subscribed.

Pictures coming soon????
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post #3 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-28-2018, 07:32 PM Thread Starter
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Alright looking forward to this. Subscribed.

Pictures coming soon????
Yep, coming right now! Just had to take some.
My phone is abysmal at fishtank photo's and I've sold my DSLR unfortunately (hah and I have a sticky on aquarium photography.. hmm that reminds me I should fix the broken images in that thread..)




So this is right after a rescape and trim so things look a bit off.
I'm still horrible at groupings and what have you, plus I have collectoritis so my plants are very... cramped.
I trimmed out a TON of blyxa to get it to this state, but everything that replaced the Blyxa is very short at the moment!
Not to mention my hairgrass got WRECKED when I ran out of co2. More algae than Hairgrass now, really eager to replace it with S. Repens and some various Erio's, and a little patch of Hydrocotyle.

I did some experiments taking very small pieces of Hydrocotyle and dipping them in Excel for a while and then planting them Emersed to see if I could mutate them in any way.
I may have a super slow growing and short mutant Hydrocotyle soon.. Too bad it grows so slow it's putting out a leaf per week! Will never get to sell any of it!



Top down, you can see most of the species from this angle, and this angle always seems so much more full!






My kessil is SO bright on the leaf tips that hte camera can't adjust for the dark areas at all so it kinda looks 10x worse in photos!








My Pogostemon Kimberley has started doing weird stuff too, one of the stems has very short leaves and a thicker stalk on the new growth.


and I don't think I have the dwarf Lobelia so this needs to go!
The blyxa should probably be replaced as well but I just cant bring myself to get rid of it since it does so well.


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post #4 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 02:00 AM
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How's the spread on the 160? I want to buy 2 for a 48*19*19 tank
Do you think it would be a good light to grow most plants?

I presently have a current satellite plus pro 48" and ecoxotic e90 36"

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
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post #5 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 05:36 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by iamaloner View Post
How's the spread on the 160? I want to buy 2 for a 48*19*19 tank
Do you think it would be a good light to grow most plants?

I presently have a current satellite plus pro 48" and ecoxotic e90 36"

Sent from my PH-1 using Tapatalk
I am chasing higher and higher light so for me I kinda wish I had 2 on this tank..
But its plenty of light honestly, the spread would be fine for that tank.
for a lot of plants and aquascapes I cant think of a better light honestly.
I had two of the sattelite plus pro and swapped it out for this and it's brighter but also has more shadows so sometimes it doesn't seem brighter.
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post #6 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-29-2018, 03:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Chlorophile View Post
I am chasing higher and higher light so for me I kinda wish I had 2 on this tank..
But its plenty of light honestly, the spread would be fine for that tank.
for a lot of plants and aquascapes I cant think of a better light honestly.
I had two of the sattelite plus pro and swapped it out for this and it's brighter but also has more shadows so sometimes it doesn't seem brighter.
I switched from 2 satellite's to 2 Ai Primes on my tank and I get what you mean by more shadows. I wonder what causes that, if it's the degree of optics used? I do like these lights much better than the satellites though, opens up the top of the tank and it's easier to work inside.

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post #7 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 01:10 AM Thread Starter
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I switched from 2 satellite's to 2 Ai Primes on my tank and I get what you mean by more shadows. I wonder what causes that, if it's the degree of optics used? I do like these lights much better than the satellites though, opens up the top of the tank and it's easier to work inside.
Definitely, I love being able to just reach in and not bump anything ever!

The shadows are because the light is "point source"

If you imagine holding your hand out under the light it would create one shadow of your hand.
With two lights it would create 2 shadows both half as dark as the first shadow since there are now two sources of light.
If you have a light bar there will just be a general dimming because there are so many sources of light that can get around your hand and get rid of the shadow.

I kind of want a second kessil, but then I had debated switching to the 360 as well.. I might just wait and see if they are going to come out with anything with a bit more red any time soon.


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post #8 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 01:31 AM Thread Starter
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Dosed more Ammonium Sulfate today, 1/16 tsp, i'm testing ammonia at 0 to 0.25 within 12 hours of dosing.. hard to tell for sure, probably closer to 0

It has been about 4 days of using the NH4 and I'd say i'm about 2 nodes of growth in since that point.
The internodes are short as I saw in my test tank although hard to say if its just because its the new growth.
I noticed the most dramatic shortening on Bacopa Caroliniana in the test tank, internodes were 1/4" to 1/8"

I'll be monitoring Clinopodium Downoi and Ludwigia SP Super Red in this tank for similar.
To make sure it's not just lighting I've topped both plants so I can have much shorter versions in the tank.


Here you can see how short the two are, directly in front of Rotala Bonsai


Here is L. Super Red, the bottom few leaves are from before the Ammonium, then I started ammonium and also replanted the tops.


Pogostemon Kimberley.. just cause! It's doing some changing also but not sure I like it, might just be low light cause its so short. The new leaves are shorter and wider than the growth from Burr's tank.


here is the untopped Ludiwiga, lowest growth is from when it was in Burr's tank, everything above the split on the central plant was in my tank.


also here is Ludwigia Rubin, I haven't topped this as I need some more growth out of it first, has probably put on about 4 inches in my tank and all the nodes have been short, not sure I see any response to ammonium on this plant but we'll see.
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post #9 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 02:13 AM
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Yeah that Kimberly is borderline stunting. Not sure how your macro dosing ties into the whole NH4 experiment, but it does best for me when larding on the macros, specifically NO3 and K. It doesnt take moderate levels well at all. (in my tanks)

And man...you should really get all that BBA out of there, even if means losing the hair grass. Just buy some more if you have to but all that crap needs to go asap.
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post #10 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-30-2018, 02:34 AM Thread Starter
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Yeah that Kimberly is borderline stunting. Not sure how your macro dosing ties into the whole NH4 experiment, but it does best for me when larding on the macros, specifically NO3 and K. It doesnt take moderate levels well at all. (in my tanks)

And man...you should really get all that BBA out of there, even if means losing the hair grass. Just buy some more if you have to but all that crap needs to go asap.
As you may know from my other few threads my K is/was borderline insanity,
I have assumed my NO3 was high based on my dosing, but my plants are STUFFED in there so maybe I'm using a lot more than I think.
I'm dosing 25ppm NO3 per week plus the nh4..
It's not possible that its just because it is so short? Not a lot of light down there?

As for the BBA, I have a bag of shrimp soil coming so that I can suck the entire foreground out and replace. I want S. Repens and Erio's, possibly montecarlo.. not a fan of the hairgrass anymore. The Belem is so slow, I used to have E. Acicularis and it was taller and aggressive and algae free..
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post #11 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 02:16 PM
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Since you are trying to move your ammonium experiment over here, I'll do the same.

I've been thinking about your success with ammonium and my lack of seeing any difference between dosing urea and not dosing urea (should be the same with equalized dosing). The one thing none of us are accounting for are our pets. My fish load, in my 29 gal, is about double yours. I'm wondering if they are providing all the ammonium that my plants can use and the rest is just being converted into NO3 by the BB (NO3 is always in the 20-30 ppm area). This could be a big swing factor in deciding how/if to dose ammonium and urea.

If anyone wanted to do a much better controlled experiment, I think it would have to be done without any pets in the tank. Still, I want to see how your experiment plays out, particularly with respect to the internode observation.
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post #12 of 112 (permalink) Old 01-31-2018, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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Since you are trying to move your ammonium experiment over here, I'll do the same.

I've been thinking about your success with ammonium and my lack of seeing any difference between dosing urea and not dosing urea (should be the same with equalized dosing). The one thing none of us are accounting for are our pets. My fish load, in my 29 gal, is about double yours. I'm wondering if they are providing all the ammonium that my plants can use and the rest is just being converted into NO3 by the BB (NO3 is always in the 20-30 ppm area). This could be a big swing factor in deciding how/if to dose ammonium and urea.

If anyone wanted to do a much better controlled experiment, I think it would have to be done without any pets in the tank. Still, I want to see how your experiment plays out, particularly with respect to the internode observation.
Hah well somehow I've been roped into conversation on both threads so I'm not sure which one will be the long term chat. I don't think many of the fertilizer guys clicked through to here.

But I don't think fish load works the same, your fish are always supplying that ammonia but it's slow release, so the concentration isn't ever going to peak, plants and filter will always eat it up quickly.
Dosing it provides a spike in concentration, the filter won't be able convert it that quick and I think the slightly higher concentration is good for the plants.
The extra food should feed some of the bacteria but they die off in 24 hours if unfed so I think it works out well...
I'm about to dose the tank again in a few hours and then I'll take an Ammonia test as this is now 3 days of daily dosing and I'm curious to see if I've accumulated any ammonia


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post #13 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 01:41 AM
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Personally I agree with Burr above. Pogo K. looks stunted.

IMO forget the Ammonium Sulfate for awhile.

Get CO2, lighting, and regular old macros right first (more).

And get back to basics. I'd do a large trim/pruning, get rid of algae infected parts, lower the mass, get some space between those species, and get things uber clean (vacuum, clean filters, extra water change).

See how things respond, then mess with things like Ammonium.


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post #14 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 03:42 AM
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Agree with every word Gregg just said, emphasis on the cleaning and pruning part.

I wasnt sure if you were actually trying to fix things, or just running an ammonium experiment for the heck of it. But to get things right you need to do a BIG clean and pruning. Remove some biomass, all that old growth thats in bad shape.

This general tank husbandry which is basically grunt work and so often overlooked will solve a multitude of problems

Then make sure CO2 is good and lard on the macros, especially KNO3. Keep dosing the .15 micro blend 4-5 times a week, daily or whatever.

There's no mysterious boogeyman to kill and no magical fix to solve everything. The same things will help these plants that help everybody elses - good husbandry, good co2, and plenty of ferts.

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post #15 of 112 (permalink) Old 02-01-2018, 04:17 AM Thread Starter
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Agree with every word Gregg just said, emphasis on the cleaning and pruning part.

I wasnt sure if you were actually trying to fix things, or just running an ammonium experiment for the heck of it. But to get things right you need to do a BIG clean and pruning. Remove some biomass, all that old growth thats in bad shape.

This general tank husbandry which is basically grunt work and so often overlooked will solve a multitude of problems

Then make sure CO2 is good and lard on the macros, especially KNO3. Keep dosing the .15 micro blend 4-5 times a week, daily or whatever.

There's no mysterious boogeyman to kill and no magical fix to solve everything. The same things will help these plants that help everybody elses - good husbandry, good co2, and plenty of ferts.

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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
Personally I agree with Burr above. Pogo K. looks stunted.

IMO forget the Ammonium Sulfate for awhile.

Get CO2, lighting, and regular old macros right first (more).

And get back to basics. I'd do a large trim/pruning, get rid of algae infected parts, lower the mass, get some space between those species, and get things uber clean (vacuum, clean filters, extra water change).

See how things respond, then mess with things like Ammonium.
Appreciate the input, I largely attribute some of the issues yall are seeing to my 11 hour photoperiod, but I could be wrong.
However its something I am OKAY with to be able to view my tank for more hours of the day, 11am to 10-pm I have light on my tank.

Not sure I want to reduce plant mass, I think its my favorite thing about the tank, but if the plant mass is causing a deficiency that is noticeable I will increase to compensate.
AR Mini and mystery ludwigia, Dwarf Hairgrass, are my only plants that get algae on them, everything else is fierce and aggressive... and I have the BUM parvula hairgrass which wont even go over 1.4 inches tall if I try.


how sensitive is Kimberley for lighting?
I got 3" tall stems, and they are close to 27 inches from the light...
I almost didn't order them when I found out how short they would be because I knew they would be starved starved starved for par.





My lighting is not as good as Burr's but my Ludwigia Rubin has gotten much denser, tighter nodes, fatter leaves, since I recieved it..
The pigmentation has dropped off but that seems strictly lighting related if you ask me..
The other characteristics though are better.
That could simply mean that my lower light allows the plant to provide its tissues with nutrients at a better rate- too much light will make some nutrients limiting and so the plant could look less vital.
I mean... the new growth smashes the growth that was on it when I recieved it..






Clino internodes at 12 inch above substrate with no ammonium..

Clino at 4 inch above substrate with ammonium

Scale might be hard to determine.. but it is much denser.
I don't have the intensity of light to produce the reds.
And It is not height related, higher up in the tank the nodes were longer.
I trimmed the plants to remove this variable, put the plants low in the tank, the nodes are smaller by a good 50%
1/3 inch vs 5/8 inch atleast.
And its not just the new growth, new growth before was still long and stretched.
And if you are thinking its color spectrum, i'm running the kessil on full warm just incase that is a factor.
Thats still only 5k, but i shouldn't be causing compact growth with 5k.
... L. Rubin has internodes in the 1/8th of an inch now vs 1/2 when I got it.
Surely one kessil isn't brighter than multiple t5ho and cant induce that.

Unless its a response to my 11 hour photo period, summer vs fall stuff, idk.

I could reduce photo period to 8 hours and prob stop all the algae yall mention, but thats not anything I'm trying to prove, thats not part of my experiment.
If the algae is ugly, yes it is, I do apologize.
But that doesn't derail my experiments, nor can the algae induce stunting in kimberley afaik.
What are your weekly PPM's in NPK?
If I am far off I would love to add more, nothing makes me happier than dosing lol!
Including Nh4 and kno3 My N is probably 50-75 percent more than most, my K is dramatically higher as well.
I dose 12ppm a week of Po4 to prevent GSA.
New tank water is introduced at 21ppm CA per week.

What exactly do you mean by getting my macros right?
What exactly is RIGHT?
Do you just mean lean my plant mass out until what "most" dose is the same as what I dose?

Last edited by Chlorophile; 02-01-2018 at 04:43 AM. Reason: Pics
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