Tsing's 135 Hybrid - Page 19 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #271 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 04:16 AM Thread Starter
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Thursday Maintenance instead of Friday

The one stem I've been keeping track of is doing "ok." It's been growing towards the shaded area under the overflow box. Im guessing there's too much light, that might be the problem.




The other good stem




The "wth is going on why are the tops dead" steams





Dunno how I feel about the current rearrangement


Gonna give mermaid weed and siamensis 53b a couple of weeks to grow back in a bit before deciding I guess.
Eh random buces and anubias on the left corner til I replumb my sump for a refugium


Decided to move the Glandulosa/Perunesis over here. This spot has less light and the flow is still good.


Might have a chance with growing Ludwigia White, it hasn't died yet


Dropping K (15 to 11.49) and raising PO4 (3 to 4.98)


Dropping K because I wanted to see if it'll help with the curling in Siamensis 53b and to smooth out glandulosa/perunesis:
Quote:
excessive levels of potassium can cause antagonisms that lead to deficiencies in other nutrients such as magnesium and calcium.
https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/tr...plant-culture/

Raising Phosphate: been getting GSA on some Buces and the front glass,might as well see if raising PO4 will help although I've also read that having a 10~13:1 N:P ratio might eliminate it. Glandulosa/Perunesis was shedding leaves like crazy also.


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post #272 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 05:32 AM
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Dropping bottom leaves, in a lot of cases, is too much micros/Fe. Those other symptoms can be too.

I really dont think you need 1.2/week, but you probably want to proceed with the current plan before trying lower levels.

If its a micro problem the current plan's not gonna help anyway, you'll know something in 2-3 weeks

Also I think the gsa is more about the general unhappiness of certain things rather than PO4. But as long as you're dosing that much Fe you probably need a lot, so raising it might help


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post #273 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-01-2019, 01:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Dropping bottom leaves, in a lot of cases, is too much micros/Fe. Those other symptoms can be too.

I really dont think you need 1.2/week, but you probably want to proceed with the current plan before trying lower levels.

If its a micro problem the current plan's not gonna help anyway, you'll know something in 2-3 weeks
what i find really odd is that the glandulosa is the only one shedding bottom leaves (stuck to the overflow every morning). I mean I do get bottom leaf death on the Limnos (all 3 sp) and Stauro repens but they usually stay on and die and die at a lot slower rate than the glandulosa.

I think one of these days I might try not dosing anything for a week to see what happens (maybe late May). Wouldn't mind chipping away at some of the excess ferts, especially NO3. NO3's still reading pretty high, definitely over 17 ppm (calibrated test kit) per week even though I only dose 15 ppm per week and w/e is in my tap (below 8 ppm usually).

17.64 ppm calibrated


more than 17.64, Feb 28th


Quote:
Also I think the gsa is more about the general unhappiness of certain things rather than PO4. But as long as you're dosing that much Fe you probably need a lot, so raising it might help
I think another thing I need to check on is photoperiod, I know the right of my tank gets ambient light from the windows and it might explain why the set of buces on the right branch have a lil bit of GSA while the ones on the left branch are still clean, PAR is about equal on both sets, flows a bit weaker on the left side though.
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post #274 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 12:45 AM Thread Starter
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Friday maintenance update

The buces during w/c





Lobelia Dwarf us getting a bit out of hand, might thin it a bit and give the Staurogyne purple more room


I screwed up the Hygrophila Sunesets but they recoloring up, previously they were way too shaded by the brace



Blyxa Novo / Blyxa Novoguineensis still hella red


Lorenzetia Hyptis doing good now after dropping K values to 10ish total



Hygro Pinnatifida, dropped a couple of its emmersed leaves,hoping it grows offshoots faster


Bacopa Caroliana tops turning pink, these were the extremely tall stems


Ceratopteris Siliquosa still adpating to my water I guess


Perunesis, no comment



Mermaid Weed leaves seem fuller now after lowering Fe to 0.6 ppm Weekly over the past week.



Something's been off with the Staurogyne big leaf / Spatulata for awhile now (way before upping Mg and lowering Fe to 0.6 ppm weekly). It's not a good shot but the tops look a lil scrunched up, almost deflated. Something from my micro mix might be inhibiting Cu uptake. I have some Cu from tap too.


The front glass was hella covered with GDA and a lil bit of GSA, razor bladed the whole front and drained the algae out with some spare air line tubing. Dont remember how long it took but I filled a 5gal bucket lol.


Only dosed 0.6 ppm weekly last week, tank soaked up about 0.58 ppm. Guess I'm proving Marcel right?


Testing a new routine starting today, probably the craziest one in awhile.
Note: This with the 8 ppm NO3 and 3 ppm K from my tap. What I'm actually adding to the tank is 1.0622 KNO3, 1.288 KH2PO4, and 1.2 K.


Want to see if lowering N further will help with Siamensis 53b's leaf curling and Perunesis' wonky leaves.
What's rolling around in my head: N increases Mg up take, higher Mg in the plant may antagonize with w/e amount of Ca is in it causing faux Ca deficiency.

Lowering Micros to to see if lowered B will prevent any more leaf loss in Perunesis and Limnophila.
Quote:
Toxicity: Boron toxicity is similar to other micronutrient toxicities in which the older leaves start to show a marginal or leaf tip chlorosis that soon becomes necrotic or burned. Necrosis progresses inward on the leaf causing its death and defoliation. It can rapidly affect all lower leaves. The range between the correct application rate and a toxic application rate is very narrow. If boron toxicity occurs, test the growing medium's pH and nutrient levels, and also test the water. Boron toxicity can occur if the growing medium's pH is below 5.5 or if there is an overapplication of boron. Check the water source as levels above 0.5 ppm are considered high, especially when combined with standard fertilizers that contain boron. Leaching will help flush out excess boron, and apply a calcium-containing fertilizer as calcium is known to bind up boron and make it unavailable.
- https://www.pthorticulture.com/en/tr...plant-culture/

Why the weird numbers? It's from aiming for a 10:1:10 NPK (not NO3:PO4:K) ratio to see if it helps with the stupid amount of GDA.

Quote:
Elevated iron (Fe), trace minerals, and high NH4/PO4 are the most likely causes of GDA. Green Dust Algae manifests itself in tanks dosed with traces that are produced from strong chelates whereas sulfate (SO4-) and chloride (Cl-) derived traces are less likely to cause GDA. The largest contributor to the development of GDA appears to be the administration of excessive amounts of iron.
To prevent the spread of GDA, a balance of Urea/NH4/NO3 (N), Potassium (K), Phosphorous (P), and Iron (Fe)/Trace should be dosed in the aquarium. However, this method works best in densely planted tanks as the goal is to stimulate the plants to outcompete the GDA for available nutrients. Green Dust Algae thrives in sparsely planted tanks due to the lower rates of nutrient consumption which also explains why recently trimmed tanks are more likely to have breakouts of GDA. Maintaining a high level of plant density becomes an obvious goal in the pursuit of the elimination of GDA. Furthermore, to eliminate GDA and never see it again, use a balanced fertilizer designed for aquatic plants. One should avoid using CSM and Miller.
- All things algae by Happi

Quote:
When Green Spot Algae (GSA) is discussed, it is often mentioned that it is caused by low phosphate (PO43-, not to be confused with elemental P which is phosphorous) levels. On the contrary, all the experiments I have conducted indicate otherwise and I have seen GSA occur under high PO4 levels and vanish under low PO4 levels. GSA is easily controlled by using a balanced fertilizer, unbalanced fertilizers promote GSA as well as many other types of algae. In my testing it was found that keeping the N:P ratio in the range of 10-13:1 would keep the GSA away in many cases. Commonly used N:P ratios tend to fall in the 5-7.5:1 range and there seems to be a strong correlation between the appearance of multiple forms of algae and N:P ratios that get approach to 1:1. Sometimes GSA and GDA would appear together due to excessive doses of Fe/Traces, Nitrogen, and Phosphorous but under proper conditions, GDA and GSA will not appear even on older damaged leaves and/or very slow growing plants.
- All things algae by Happi

and yeah I know there's no miracle ratio because Joe's running a 3:1 N:P ratio from dry ferts and his tank is spotless of algae. Not sure what his tap N was.

I have other routines I wanna try in case things go south.




Better look of the above charts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

I'm still messing with the idea of using Urea or NH4. only problem with urea is that my pH is at about 7.2 for 16hrs of the day. NH4, I'm just chicken for now lol.


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Last edited by SingAlongWithTsing; 03-09-2019 at 09:21 AM. Reason: spelling errors
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post #275 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 01:11 AM
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Dennis I love the entire post.

I have to read it over maybe 5 more times now to let it soak in!

But first time through, my immediate thought is I need some of that Blyxa Novu in my life!!

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Originally Posted by SingAlongWithTsing View Post


Blyxa Novu still hella red


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post #276 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
Dennis I love the entire post.

I have to read it over maybe 5 more times now to let it soak in!

But first time through, my immediate thought is I need some of that Blyxa Novu in my life!!
@Xiaozhuang is Dennis, I'm Henry LOL

and I shortened the name wrong, it's Blyxa Novo / Blyxa Novoguineensis


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post #277 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-09-2019, 01:22 AM
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Originally Posted by SingAlongWithTsing View Post
Xiaozhuang is Dennis, I'm Henry LOL

and I shortened the name wrong, it's Blyxa Novo / Blyxa Novoguineensis
LOL my bad......sorry for that Henry!! No disrespect intended....I think you know I love following your tank and look forward to what comes next.

And whatever you call that Blyxa, I still need it.


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post #278 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 06:27 AM Thread Starter
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Late Friday nite update:

Eh GDA again, less than the last few weeks but still annoying. Been getting more sun into the fish room in the past few weeks, might have to dial down the LEDs. Honestly I'm really tempted to just go back to 7.5 ppm PO4 weekly like I had about a year ago just to nuke the GSA, only problem is I was also dosing like 0.9 ppm Fe weekly at the time and didn't have to worry about precipitation.


Redid the center, felt that the Blyxa was wasted by being behind the Lobelia previously.


Cleaned up the S.Repens, it's been awhile since I even bothered with it.


Not sure how I feel about the Cambomba being here yet


Still need to figure out what to do with the bits of buces on the left corner


Limno went from hot pink to just pink (fert uptake chart below) and yeah I threw the Ludwigia Perunesis back there, idk what Im gonna do with em anymore.


Argentine sword probably gonna flower in a few weeks


Got curious with what my water column levels were from last week to this week


Things to keep in mind:
the 9.0622 ppm NO3 is 8 from tap and 1.0622 from KNO3
Hana Fe Colorimeter has an accuracy of 0.04 ppm 2% of reading so I'm either under dosing by 0.05 ppm Fe or over dosing by 0.03 ppm

Tempted to switch from v27e to v27j but I still want to chip away at that left over NO3


some of you are probably wondering:
why not just do bigger water changes? I can't, my Dension Barbs start freaking out when ever the water line drops below 40%. They start jumping and darting.
why not just do more frequent water changes? Besides my planted tank I have a 180 gallon turtle pond, a 180 gallon texas cihclid tank, a 55 gallon arowana grow out tank, and a gold fish tank that my uncle dumped on me, that 's a lot of water already lol.
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Last edited by SingAlongWithTsing; 03-16-2019 at 06:53 AM. Reason: corrected chart
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post #279 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 12:18 PM
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Think you need to forget the Redfield ratio (10:1 N:P) Its no magic fix, trust me.

Though I agree green spot is not low PO4. High PO4 can sometimes kill it but its not the root cause. The root cause is unhappy plants, can be a number of reasons for that

The root cause of dust is usually too much NO3, K, or Fe. All three can bring it on. Ive never seen it with low dosing routines even if the plants arent happy. Dennis says the running joke in Asia is that GDA is and EI disease, lol. Because they never see it.

Personally, I think your plants are still reeling from dosing so much Fe for so long. Stick with the current macros and give .06 (or less) a few more weeks

There is no detectable NO3 in my tap btw


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post #280 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Think you need to forget the Redfield ratio (10:1 N:P) Its no magic fix, trust me.

Though I agree green spot is not low PO4. High PO4 can sometimes kill it but its not the root cause. The root cause is unhappy plants, can be a number of reasons for that

The root cause of dust is usually too much NO3, K, or Fe. All three can bring it on. Ive never seen it with low dosing routines even if the plants arent happy. Dennis says the running joke in Asia is that GDA is and EI disease, lol. Because they never see it.


Personally, I think your plants are still reeling from dosing so much Fe for so long. Stick with the current macros and give .06 (or less) a few more weeks

There is no detectable NO3 in my tap btw
Have read this several times. In part, one of the reasons I have been lowering my dosing over the last few months. My weekly FE dosing is 0.45 - think I will leave that alone. NO3 and K - under 20ppm dosed weekly. I cannot actually "measure" the amount of GDA on the front glass, but there was a time when I would run the MagFloat over the front glass atleast every other day if not every day. Lately I can last 3 or 4 days before I clean the glass. So, I could reasonably believe the EI disease statement. But, FWIW, EI is intended to be non-limiting. Determining what your plants "need" can sometimes be a long process. Henry has the ability and skills to actually measure what is happening so in my opinion that would be more useful / accurate than just trying to read the tank / plant conditions.



Will have to agree with Gregg - lot of very useful information in this journal!
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Last edited by Immortal1; 03-16-2019 at 01:05 PM. Reason: <?>
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post #281 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 01:40 PM
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Determining what your plants "need" can sometimes be a long process.
3 weeks, 8 measurements of NO3, PO4, and Fe taken every 3 days.
Keep records of tests and record precisely what you are dosing.
Don't forget WC reduction added into the mix.

Multiple tanks is when it becomes a problem!
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Growing is not that difficult.
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post #282 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-16-2019, 02:03 PM
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While I've found the last couple pages of your journal extremely informational, I've been looking for an explanation I haven't found elsewhere and I thought I should ask you:

Plants require good flow for healthy growth, for reasons you are surely completely aware of. However, I can't find any explanation for how people grow bunches of plants (such as yours) in such tight groupings. Surely there is nearly zero flow underneath the top 1 inch or so of these stems? Do the plants feed most prominently through the newer growth? How do you prevent a bunch of leaf loss underneath there causing a boom in organic waste? In short: How do people grow such tight groupings?
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post #283 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-17-2019, 12:03 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Blacktetra View Post
While I've found the last couple pages of your journal extremely informational, I've been looking for an explanation I haven't found elsewhere and I thought I should ask you:

Plants require good flow for healthy growth, for reasons you are surely completely aware of. However, I can't find any explanation for how people grow bunches of plants (such as yours) in such tight groupings. Surely there is nearly zero flow underneath the top 1 inch or so of these stems? Do the plants feed most prominently through the newer growth? How do you prevent a bunch of leaf loss underneath there causing a boom in organic waste? In short: How do people grow such tight groupings?
Flow, maintenance, and trickery in my case.

Current flow chart.

Had to brighten up the pic for the outflows to show.


On the front side of the tank I get enough flow for til at least 1" above the substrate, I mean there's still flow near the sub it's just weaker.
The flow gets weaker as you move towards the bottom left.

I have bottom leaf death with the Limnophila groupings on the left side of the tank, well the stems towards the center of that section. The ones in the front get enough flow to keep their bottom leaves and I use em to hide the ones in the center and back lol.

Stems on the right side of the tank usually don't have any bottom leaf death, with the exception of perunesis because I screwed that plant up so badly (nutrient related).

As for the center groupings:
the Windelov and Java fern grouping is just sitting on egg crate (just think of the A from the avengers symbol).
the Blyxa is planted in a spot with 120~135 PAR. Actual PAR maybe lower when the Penthorum grows and provides a lil bit of shade.
Penthorum sedoides is at 70 (under the buce branch) to 130 PAR (behind the Blyxa)
the 3 groupings still get good flow even though it's weaker than the right side.

Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Personally, I think your plants are still reeling from dosing so much Fe for so long. Stick with the current macros and give .06 (or less) a few more weeks

There is no detectable NO3 in my tap btw
did you mean 0.6 Fe or 0.06 Fe weekly, because I don't think I can push it to 0.06 with how high my Ca is. This Week I'm sticking with v27e's Macros but bumping Fe from 0.2 to 0.25 weekly because I've notice the Limno are paler, every other plant hasn't shown any signs of changes yet.
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Last edited by SingAlongWithTsing; 03-17-2019 at 12:07 AM. Reason: clarification
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post #284 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-17-2019, 12:16 AM
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Yeah I meant .6 per week

~1.3 PO4 and 4-6 K, if Im reading the chart right, seems incredibly low weekly totals. Macros can turn Limno pale just as bad and quick as Fe. I'd think about doubling both of those
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post #285 of 307 (permalink) Old 03-17-2019, 01:27 AM
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What's interesting is that your water column numbers (NO3 35, PO4 5) seem pretty good. If anything, I would up P a bit.

I missed it, what is your weekly water change %?

And that Ca & Mg number is something I have no experience with. My guess is with those numbers so high, you might need a bit more of everything else to keep in balance.

Similar to my tank. When my K was very high, needed more of everything else to stay in balance. I lowered K, and now need less of everything else. Thought is something similar to Liebligs law, but based on the maximum. When one element is high, you might need to base dosing on that to balance everything else.

Just a thought.

And with 125-130 PAR in spots, you have much less room for error in getting it right.

But all in all, I have to say, love the presentation and whole concept of the tank. Everything about it is interesting to me.


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