Tsing's 125 Hybrid - IAPLC 2020 - Rank 840 - Page 9 - The Planted Tank Forum
 722Likes
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #121 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 05:53 AM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (132/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,922
You're dosing micros daily right? Id raise B from .025 to .035 per day, and Zn to .065.

Might wanna do one at a time, I'd probably start with B because Ive seen those same crinkled Ludwigia tips come and go in L red based on B alone.

I dont think unchelated Zn sticks around very long, which would explain why Seachem uses so much. Its the highest nutrient in Trace, ppm-wise about 2x the Mn

My tanks do better in the .055-.065 per day range. Ive tried lowering it several times simply because that seems like a whopping amount, always get negative signs starting down in the 40s


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




burr740 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #122 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 06:15 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
SingAlongWithTsing's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: SoCal - IE
Posts: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
You're dosing micros daily right? Id raise B from .025 to .035 per day, and Zn to .065.

Might wanna do one at a time, I'd probably start with B because Ive seen those same crinkled Ludwigia tips come and go in L red based on B alone.

I dont think unchelated Zn sticks around very long, which would explain why Seachem uses so much. Its the highest nutrient in Trace, ppm-wise about 2x the Mn

My tanks do better in the .055-.065 per day range. Ive tried lowering it several times simply because that seems like a whopping amount, always get negative signs starting down in the 40s
yup daily. currently is B 0.03 daily and Zn 0.06 daily.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SingAlongWithTsing is offline  
post #123 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 06:27 AM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (132/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingAlongWithTsing View Post
yup daily. currently is B 0.03 daily and Zn 0.06 daily.
Oh I must've miscalculated based on your spreadsheet. Then I'd try raising B another 10 ppb and Zn another 15. Sounds like a lot but it may be needed if something else is interfering. 80 ppm Ca is a lot too.

You could make a solution with just one or both to add along with your main micro mix. You should know something after about a week if it's a positive thing or not.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




burr740 is offline  
 
post #124 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 01:17 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 39
I am really curious how this turns out.

I am experiencing a very similar thing. It started like curling of the leaves on your photos, but now there are visible VERY dark areas starting from the tip, which after closer inspection are translucent . Only L. glandulosa, A. mini and L. super red mini are visibly affected (funny - only red plants). It all started after I bumped my daily doses of micros up. The plants I mentioned stopped growing completely, others slowed down considerably (1 inch of growth per 2 weeks, 160W LED on 75g, CO2 etc etc). Some plants such as D. diandra display visible chlorosis of the tips, even though there is 0.7 ppm of Fe in water.

Now what I suspect is happening is Zinc toxicity. Yes, I said it. The symptoms are described as "stunting of shoot, curling and rolling of young leaves, death of leaf tips and chlorosis". Several years ago, there was a thread on aquaticplantcentral where two guys were experiencing similar issues and upon laboratory testing of water showed accumulation of Zn (0.4 ppm).

I read a ton of literature on this and it seems the plants tolerance to Zn is very variable, some is starting as low as 65 ppb. It can be partially mitigated by Ca in water (I have the paper available in case you want to read it). I should say I have pretty soft water (4 DGH) and literally 0 DKH (thanks, substrate!), Zinc is more likely to become dangerous in my tank. There are no carbonates so it cannot even start to precipitate. In addition, my tap water might have some obscene amounts in it (?). This is why I think some people can dose higher amounts of Zn.

If you look at the composition all the commercial fertilizers at RotalaButterfly, you will see that all of them (even Seachem) dose 2-4 ppb of Zn per 50 ppb of Mn. This is very different from what we are dosing right now, and I wonder what the reason is. Could it be toxicity, or simply because there is generally enough Zn in tap water as it is?

Sorry for this long write up, maybe it is not completely related to your case, but it has been bugging me for two weeks now.
acino is offline  
post #125 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 04:05 PM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (132/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by acino View Post
I am really curious how this turns out.

I am experiencing a very similar thing. It started like curling of the leaves on your photos, but now there are visible VERY dark areas starting from the tip, which after closer inspection are translucent . Only L. glandulosa, A. mini and L. super red mini are visibly affected (funny - only red plants). It all started after I bumped my daily doses of micros up. The plants I mentioned stopped growing completely, others slowed down considerably (1 inch of growth per 2 weeks, 160W LED on 75g, CO2 etc etc). Some plants such as D. diandra display visible chlorosis of the tips, even though there is 0.7 ppm of Fe in water.

Now what I suspect is happening is Zinc toxicity. Yes, I said it. The symptoms are described as "stunting of shoot, curling and rolling of young leaves, death of leaf tips and chlorosis". Several years ago, there was a thread on aquaticplantcentral where two guys were experiencing similar issues and upon laboratory testing of water showed accumulation of Zn (0.4 ppm).

I read a ton of literature on this and it seems the plants tolerance to Zn is very variable, some is starting as low as 65 ppb. It can be partially mitigated by Ca in water (I have the paper available in case you want to read it). I should say I have pretty soft water (4 DGH) and literally 0 DKH (thanks, substrate!), Zinc is more likely to become dangerous in my tank. There are no carbonates so it cannot even start to precipitate. In addition, my tap water might have some obscene amounts in it (?). This is why I think some people can dose higher amounts of Zn.

If you look at the composition all the commercial fertilizers at RotalaButterfly, you will see that all of them (even Seachem) dose 2-4 ppb of Zn per 50 ppb of Mn. This is very different from what we are dosing right now, and I wonder what the reason is. Could it be toxicity, or simply because there is generally enough Zn in tap water as it is?

Sorry for this long write up, maybe it is not completely related to your case, but it has been bugging me for two weeks now.
Good post and just goes to show how different set ups need different things.

Zn has a pretty low potential for toxicity by itself. The main thing it does when levels are too high is inhibit the absorption of something else, as the chart posted above illustrated.

Pretty good simplified article HERE.

In your case you have Fe symptoms in spite of having .7 ppm in the water column. So your issue could very well be too much Zn, or too much Mn or P, which also compete with Fe for absorption by the plants

Zn will be more available, and stick around longer, in low PH levels, low KH, and in the presence of low levels of Ca and some other nutrients.

In Tsing's case his tank has quite the opposite, so he could need more Zn to compensate for other high levels. (or it could have squat to do with B and Zn and be entirely related to something else)

Also whether the Zn is chelated or not makes a big difference how much we need to dump in there. Tsing is using non-chelated Zn like the rest of us who are currently rolling their own. It's the same compounds Seachem uses which is why I referenced them. Most commercial product use edta based compounds, Seachem doesnt.

Non-chelated compounds dont stick around as long as chelated ones. So even though 65 ppb sounds like a lot, it becomes a different story if its all or mostly gone in a few hours.

All of the above is why it's not so much what we put in the dosing bottle, it's more about what happens once it's added to the water column.

Quote:
Originally Posted by acino View Post
If you look at the composition all the commercial fertilizers at RotalaButterfly, you will see that all of them (even Seachem) dose 2-4 ppb of Zn per 50 ppb of Mn. This is very different from what we are dosing right now, and I wonder what the reason is. Could it be toxicity, or simply because there is generally enough Zn in tap water as it is?
This is correct if you just look at Seachem Flourish Comp. But if you look at Flourish Trace, which according to Seachem is designed to be used in conjunction, you'll fine a lot more Zn than anything else



Here is what you get from both following the directions on the label

Comp - Trace - Both

Fe - .07 - 0 = .07 ppm
Mn - .002 - .0056 = .0076 ppm
B - .0019 - .0018 = .0037
Zn - .00015 - .0111 = .01125
Mo - .0002 - .00019 = .00039
Cu - .00002 - .0021 = .0021
Ni - 0 - .000002

Simplified totals for both in ppb

Fe - 70
Mn - 7.6
B - 3.7
Zn - 11.25
Mo - .39
Cu - 2.1
Ni - .002


And here again Seachem is using non-chelated compounds, including Zn. Which is the only reason I can think of why Zn is so high relative to everything else. Because you wont find such a high ratio of Zn in any research paper or study showing what plants need, or in any other commercial product that uses edta Zn

Since we are using all the same compounds as Seachem, it makes sense to follow their logic to a certain degree, or at least draw some insight from it


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.





Last edited by burr740; 04-25-2018 at 04:17 PM. Reason: .
burr740 is offline  
post #126 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 04:11 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 39
Hmm, I did not notice the trace. Only looked at the comprehensive and the rest of the manufacturers.

How would you explain rolling down leaves, darkening of tips and translucent tissue?
acino is offline  
post #127 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-25-2018, 04:30 PM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (132/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,922
Quote:
Originally Posted by acino View Post
Hmm, I did not notice the trace. Only looked at the comprehensive and the rest of the manufacturers.

How would you explain rolling down leaves, darkening of tips and translucent tissue?
I couldnt begin to explain it unfortunately. Could be too much of something (toxicity) or an induced deficiency (high levels of one thing inhibiting another) or just a straight up lack of something.

Based on your other parameters, your guess of too much Zn sounds as reasonable as anything to me.

Although I can say that Ive never seen a negative response from high Zn levels, going as high as 75 ppb daily. Ive only seen negative responses from dosing 40 and below.

But that's under my parameters, GH, PH, substrate and all that, and using non-chelated Zn. Your mileage may certainly vary.
Greggz, Greggz, acino and 1 others like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




burr740 is offline  
post #128 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-26-2018, 11:49 PM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
SingAlongWithTsing's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: SoCal - IE
Posts: 675
anyone want to play spot the difference lol.. :c



To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SingAlongWithTsing is offline  
post #129 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 12:16 AM
Planted Tanker
 
burr740's Avatar
 
PTrader: (132/100%)
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Bama
Posts: 5,922
The white balance setting?

Them holes tho, I think its an induced k deficiency from so much Ca


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




burr740 is offline  
post #130 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-27-2018, 12:19 PM
Algae Grower
 
PTrader: (0/0%)
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 39
Amazing. Was that the zinc/boron after all?
acino is offline  
post #131 of 371 (permalink) Old 04-28-2018, 04:50 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
SingAlongWithTsing's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: SoCal - IE
Posts: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by acino View Post
Amazing. Was that the zinc/boron after all?
holes were already developing before the pic. i've only upped the zinc and boron on the 25th.

back to the perunesis. i got curious today and pulled it out to check on the roots


same stem


wonky one vs ok one


moved some tripartia japan to the bottom right, gonna see how well it carpets in this corner. might move the leopard? val more up front, can barely see the thing in some pics


trimmed the repens of the right side, buceket's about 4 gallons


and into the 27 gallon plant back up tote it goes, anything growing in here doesnt seem to have any deficiency. heavily shaded, dirt and osmocote with sand cap.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by SingAlongWithTsing; 04-28-2018 at 05:37 AM. Reason: clarification.
SingAlongWithTsing is offline  
post #132 of 371 (permalink) Old 05-05-2018, 02:31 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
SingAlongWithTsing's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: SoCal - IE
Posts: 675
think i might end up moving the hygrophila serpyllum at this spot to another part of the tank in the next few days.


these couple of nodes were grown near the top of the tank in that big pile of hydrocotyle tripartia, recently moved it down this morning.


I think the added Zn and B is helping



the one good stem lol


gonna stop front loading K to see if the curling on Perunesis improves. will still be doing 40 ppm K a week. Dropping P back to 5 ppm per week, notice that Ludwigia Repens was taking a lil bit longer to color back up post trimming.
Greggz, Greggz, rzn7z7 and 7 others like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SingAlongWithTsing is offline  
post #133 of 371 (permalink) Old 05-10-2018, 03:28 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
SingAlongWithTsing's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: SoCal - IE
Posts: 675
so going back through old pics and im pretty disappointed with whats happening with the L.Perunesis and some of my Buce

these were back in march



now




this really made me sad when i compared back to a couple of months ago. pretty much ruined the 1+ year old brownie blue and purple in the back and the greenwavy i got back in february? yeah I know were comparing day and nite settings between the 2 pics but the terminal bud? and missing leaves is what i wanted to focus on.

Have about 2-3 weeks to fix this.

the only major thing i bumped between March and now was 30 ppm K to 40 ppm.

also back between March and January my Bacopa still had their bottom leaves, I'm guessing K being bumped between March and now also screwed something up with Bacopa.

I'm dropping the K back to 30 ppm per week. hopefully the hole-in-leaf problem was just a Zinc problem, had that problem since October or November 2017?
Greggz, Greggz, burr740 and 1 others like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SingAlongWithTsing is offline  
post #134 of 371 (permalink) Old 05-10-2018, 04:48 AM
Planted Tank Guru
 
Seattle_Aquarist's Avatar
 
PTrader: (66/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 6,733
Hi @SingAlongWithTsing,

I see nothing was done about the calcium issue; same hooked leaf tips on new leaves, same wavy leaf margins. Post #116 on 4/24

Roy_________
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

75 Gallon, 2X55W AH Supply CF 8800K, 1X 59W Fluval Plant (3.0); 45 Gallon Tall, 1X 46W Fluval Plant (3.0); 30 Gallon Long; Fluval F&P 2.0; 20 Gallon, 1X26W AH Supply LED; all with CO2 & (Calcined) Montmorillonite Clay
Seattle_Aquarist is offline  
post #135 of 371 (permalink) Old 05-10-2018, 04:51 AM Thread Starter
Planted Tank Enthusiast
 
SingAlongWithTsing's Avatar
 
PTrader: (1/100%)
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: SoCal - IE
Posts: 675
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seattle_Aquarist View Post
Hi @SingAlongWithTsing,

I see nothing was done about the calcium issue; same hooked leaf tips on new leaves, same wavy leaf margins. Post #116 on 4/24
yeah was testing out if it was a Boron thing first cuz my tap was Reading 80 ppm for Ca, which should be enough in theory right?

tap from cities with in 15 mins of me are about 37-40 ppm Ca

cutting back on the K this week to see if it helps. too high in potassium probably caused a faux calcium deficiency in my case since those 2 are antagonistic of each other
Greggz and Greggz like this.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
SingAlongWithTsing is offline  
Reply

Tags
135 gallon, high kh, inert substrate, sbreef, sump

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the The Planted Tank Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome