120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 35% less water volume! - Page 88 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1306 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 12:34 PM
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One of the appealing things of planted tanks as a hobby is the amount of stuff one learns along the way. Every time I think that I've knocked a couple things off the list, I look at this thread, and realize that the list is actually significantly larger than I thought. #humbling

Cause and effect - clearly the plants tell you what is wrong, but understanding and translating that into the cause is clearly a long learning endeavor. Well done.
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post #1307 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-21-2018, 06:04 PM
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Had to be a stress response right? I guess low NO3 isnt the only thing that can turn a plant red
Joe that is a very, very interesting one.

Have never seen anything like that before. I'd try to duplicate it, but no way I am turning off my CO2 long enough to find out..........not sure what mayhem that might lead to!


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post #1308 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-23-2018, 12:23 PM
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Wonderful journal! I just read all 88 pages and I really appreciate what you've done for everyone who wants to learn...you brought the rest of us along on your journey. Some people just stop by to say hi, there's a couple antagonists, and a supporting cast of main characters. This is quite the novel! Totally worth reading.

You keep hammering the same advice, and I notice this from the experts in my other hobbies as well (high performance driving and firearms)...stick to the basics! Maintenance! Get your hands dirty sleeves wet! There's really no magic formula, no amount of expensive parts are going to make up for not mastering the basics first. I think I stuck my hands in my tank a dozen times reading this because someone would mention removing dead/dying leaves or how a stem could be angled just so in order to help the visual appeal.

This was excellent burr, thank you for sharing your journey!
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post #1309 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-26-2018, 06:22 AM
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Joe,
On 20H, your light fixture is hanged on or just sitts over the tank?
If hanged, could you please take a photo? I bought the same but I don't like the way sits on tank, it's too close from surface.
Merry Christmas to all!

Last edited by AgMa; 12-26-2018 at 06:37 AM. Reason: Edit
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post #1310 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-26-2018, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks @CMcNam !

@AgMa it sits on the tank using the factory legs

Hope everyone had a great Christmas!
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post #1311 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-26-2018, 09:01 AM
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Really nice!
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post #1312 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-26-2018, 02:40 PM
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What an amazing journal. Still need to read a lot currently at page 21. Got some questions maybe you can answer. I am using seachem flourish comprensive for dosing micros. (not so good experience with csmb) Mixing my own NPK and recently bought some commercial fe (easy life ferro) because my ph out of tap is 7+ and the easy life says it has 4 different chelates. I think this works better with my tap.

Tank had lots of ups and downs. Algae was never a problem but plant health was.

I wonder if you have any advice on how much ML seachem flourish I should dose a week on lets say a 100L tank with around 90 par on the substrate. 1 ph drop. 9 hour lights. I do have aqua soil in my tanks but also plants like mc and h. Tripartita on hardscape. I was dosing 2x recommended dosage from seachem. Then Barr said an amount that is 4x higher than seachem 2x recommended dosing. Since the increase in micros I have holes in plants like mc. Tripartira and brown spots on pinnatifida. So my guess first micros was very low and since I increased a lot there is more demand for NPK.

I don't understand how people can run very low No3 less than 5 ppm. In another tank even with most plants in aqua soil plants are not super healthy. I started very low and when plantmass increased I went up to 6 and 10 ppm no3 a week. With 10 ppm no3 plants where doing much better. Then I tried to get more color on RR and Hra and went back to 6 ppm no3. Since the micros change this doesn't work well. So gonna try 15 ppm no3 for now and higher K 30 ppm instead of 20 and see if this works better. Also my water is pretty hard. 8 kh out of tap. This means my plants have a harder time to pick up nutrients right? So I guess I shouldn't aim for no3 levels below 6 ppm.

Do you have any experience with no3 levels like 6 ppm vs 15. My main worry about higher no3 levels is also that I need to prune a lot more. For aquascaping contest tanks this isn't very handy.

Trying to find the sweet spot for no3 levels for my tanks with mainly plants in aqua soil. And tanks with a mix between plants in soil and on hardscape.

Seems easier to go for mostly green plants or plants that color easier up with higher no3 levels.

In short it's very hard to figure out what element to change. And most of time I tend to change multiple things. Like more ferts of X and increase flow by cleaning filter and hoses. Sometimes it does get better but it's hard to figure out what made the change.

Current dosing that I am going to try.
N 15ppm
P 4 ppm
K 30 ppm
Fe 0,28 from easy life and a lot from seachem not sure if that type works in my tank.

I also use some osmocote balls in substrate.





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Last edited by Nigel95; 12-26-2018 at 02:41 PM. Reason: Edit
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post #1313 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-26-2018, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post

The problem with csmb, I think, was the edta chelate used for Fe. Its not suitable for my PH level, and all kinds of weird stuff can happen when a chelate breaks loose for the original compound.
Hmm this is my issue I think. I am using flourish comp and dosing easy life ferro for my fe levels. And am assuming the fe from flourish is not working in my tank. How ever I didn't think about it causing any negative effects. Recently since I increased my flourish comp by 300% at once lol (I know stupid) I saw a lot of brown dust on my outflow.

Do you know any commercial product that covers micros but no fe well? I don't trust my own mix since the csmb history.

Again amazing journal. Just what I need!!! So much to learn. So much info that I had issues with in the past.

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post #1314 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-27-2018, 06:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel95 View Post
Hmm this is my issue I think. I am using flourish comp and dosing easy life ferro for my fe levels. And am assuming the fe from flourish is not working in my tank. How ever I didn't think about it causing any negative effects. Recently since I increased my flourish comp by 300% at once lol (I know stupid) I saw a lot of brown dust on my outflow.

Do you know any commercial product that covers micros but no fe well? I don't trust my own mix since the csmb history.

Again amazing journal. Just what I need!!! So much to learn. So much info that I had issues with in the past.

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Flourish comp uses gluconate to complex the Iron which is not as strong (or arguably as harmful) as chelating agents. This form is technically easier for plants to consume and less pH dependent, but it has a very short lifespan (less than a day) before unbinding. Depending on conditions, it could be less than your lighting period.

Flourish Trace is an option. Lots of things like MicroLife out there, but no experience with them. Still waiting for "microBurr" retail packaging
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post #1315 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-27-2018, 08:43 AM
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Flourish comp uses gluconate to complex the Iron which is not as strong (or arguably as harmful) as chelating agents. This form is technically easier for plants to consume and less pH dependent, but it has a very short lifespan (less than a day) before unbinding. Depending on conditions, it could be less than your lighting period.

Flourish Trace is an option. Lots of things like MicroLife out there, but no experience with them. Still waiting for "microBurr" retail packaging
As far as I know flourish comp contains EDTA type of Fe. And seachem iron has gluconate. Maybe this has changed over the years not sure? I do not use the seachem iron just flourish comp.

Some other gurus don't seem to be a huge fan of seachem trace.

Haha :-P

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post #1316 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-27-2018, 09:06 AM
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As far as I know flourish comp contains EDTA type of Fe. And seachem iron has gluconate. Maybe this has changed over the years not sure? I do not use the seachem iron just flourish comp.

Some other gurus don't seem to be a huge fan of seachem trace.

Haha :-P

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I cheated (and nowhere near guru status yet)
https://www.seachem.com/flourish.php

Ingredients list ferrous gluconate

There's this really awesome thread you just have to read if you like this stuff:
https://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Ferti...gluconate.html

Basically, Seachem's research director argues about why they chose gluconate. I understand about 10% of it, but it's still fascinating.

The real reason I posted was to get the "microBurr" name started. I figure royalties should afford me a first bag free or something Come on Joe!
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post #1317 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-27-2018, 11:01 AM
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There's this really awesome thread you just have to read if you like this stuff:
https://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Ferti...gluconate.html

Basically, Seachem's research director argues about why they chose gluconate. I understand about 10% of it, but it's still fascinating.
Cool read thanks man.

I guess if flourish comp contains gluconate I should not run into any problems combined with my other fe with 4 chelates. Maybe reduce the micros slightly and increase N and K. And let's see.

I also made a mistake by confusing kh2po4 and k2hpo4. So my po4 levels were slightly higher than expected and I have N and P combined in a bottle. So I wanted more N which means more P also. Made a new mix now back to 4 ppm. I think before it was like 7ppm for a short time (P).

Maybe the higher po4 levels were also causing issues reacting with the fe. Who knows?

Sorry for spamming your thread with my issues Joe.

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post #1318 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-27-2018, 02:03 PM
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I am using seachem flourish comprensive for dosing micros.
This right here could be one of your issues........

Why are you using Flourish Comp as a micro source? Why not just use their Trace mix? There are a lot of using mixing our own non chelated micros based off Flourish Traces percentages.

As for Fe just pick a chelate that works best with your pH level, they all work best in a certain range.
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post #1319 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-27-2018, 07:57 PM
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Can't understand how your tank is 90par at sub.
I have the same light, same bulbs and I have 130par max in front of the tank.
Could you please post your 20H dimensions?
Mine is 22x14x16 inches.
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post #1320 of 1653 (permalink) Old 12-29-2018, 02:15 PM Thread Starter
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@Nigel95 Flourish trace has all the micros with no Fe, just follow the directions. And feel free to spam away, no worries

Quote:
Originally Posted by AgMa View Post
Can't understand how your tank is 90par at sub.
I have the same light, same bulbs and I have 130par max in front of the tank.
Could you please post your 20H dimensions?
Mine is 22x14x16 inches.
Its 24x12x16 inches

Does your light have one reflector for all four bulbs? That sounds like a lot of PAR, especially if we have the same bulbs

Could be your PAR meter is better than mine. PAR meters begin to struggle with extreme red and blue spectrums. A 660 red will be giving the plants a lot more than what the meter reads.

My par meter is a converted lux meter with a different sensor and calibrated to read PAR. Its probably ball park at best, esp when it comes to extreme sides of the spectrum.

But all par meters fall short in that regard so Im not sure how much difference a better meter would actually make.

I just measured it again, last time the bulbs were only a day or two old, thought they may not've been burned in yet. Yep, mid 90s

Bulbs are front to back: 3000K, 420 actinic, powerveg 633, Giesemann flora
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Last edited by burr740; 12-29-2018 at 02:27 PM. Reason: .
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