120 Gal Dutchy Freestyle - Now with 35% less water volume! - Page 120 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1786 of 1818 (permalink) Old 06-25-2020, 04:49 PM
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Hi @burr740, it's time for me to prepare another batch of micros and was wondering what your latest recipe is?


Thanks
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post #1787 of 1818 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 04:30 AM Thread Starter
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Hi @burr740, it's time for me to prepare another batch of micros and was wondering what your latest recipe is?


Thanks
Here's the recipe per dose. Full strength adds .15 ppm Fe and then everything else you see. Ive been dosing around .12 3x week in most tanks, a couple are getting .1

Fe DTPA - .1
Fe Gluc- .05
Mn - .045
B - .037
Zn - .035
Cu - .0025
Mo - .0013
Ni - .0003

Current macros are 21/6/25 per week, divided in three equal doses.

I stopped adding urea and NH4 about a month ago. Long story but its all from KNO3 now

Im starting to hash out a plan for the Dutch. Will post an update soon


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post #1788 of 1818 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Here's the recipe per dose. Full strength adds .15 ppm Fe and then everything else you see. Ive been dosing around .12 3x week in most tanks, a couple are getting .1

Fe DTPA - .1
Fe Gluc- .05
Mn - .045
B - .037
Zn - .035
Cu - .0025
Mo - .0013
Ni - .0003

Current macros are 21/6/25 per week, divided in three equal doses.

I stopped adding urea and NH4 about a month ago. Long story but its all from KNO3 now

Im starting to hash out a plan for the Dutch. Will post an update soon

Interesting most of your micro numbers are a little lower than what we discussed 2-3 years ago :-) At least I am close. Still zeroing in on what macro levels work in my tank.
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post #1789 of 1818 (permalink) Old 06-26-2020, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Here's the recipe per dose. Full strength adds .15 ppm Fe and then everything else you see. Ive been dosing around .12 3x week in most tanks, a couple are getting .1

Fe DTPA - .1
Fe Gluc- .05
Mn - .045
B - .037
Zn - .035
Cu - .0025
Mo - .0013
Ni - .0003

Current macros are 21/6/25 per week, divided in three equal doses.

I stopped adding urea and NH4 about a month ago. Long story but its all from KNO3 now

Im starting to hash out a plan for the Dutch. Will post an update soon

Thanks, very similar to your old 13.15 recipe I've been using for the last year


I see you're adding Fe Gluc in your micros recipe - what is your experience with it and what are the benefits?
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post #1790 of 1818 (permalink) Old 06-29-2020, 06:12 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rzn7z7 View Post
Thanks, very similar to your old 13.15 recipe I've been using for the last year


I see you're adding Fe Gluc in your micros recipe - what is your experience with it and what are the benefits?

It seems like with gluc in the mix it doesnt take as much Fe overall to keep things happy. But I havent tested it closely enough to say for sure that its more efficient. It just...seems to work a little better
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post #1791 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-29-2020, 02:07 PM
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Hi Burr,

Do you mind sharing your latest micro recipe and macro dosing numbers, iam thinking to do a new micro mix.

Also, would like to know what kind of dosing(macro,micro)you follow for soil based tanks.

Thanks,
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post #1792 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-29-2020, 05:48 PM
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Also, would like to know what kind of dosing(macro,micro)you follow for soil based tanks.
Me too!
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post #1793 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-29-2020, 06:13 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Burr,

Do you mind sharing your latest micro recipe and macro dosing numbers, iam thinking to do a new micro mix.

Also, would like to know what kind of dosing(macro,micro)you follow for soil based tanks.

Thanks,
Hi Kishore! I dose all tanks roughly the same regardless of soil or sand. I may go up or down with everything based on plant mass but I dont make any adjustments between them

Current macros, weekly total 21/6/25 divided in 3 equal doses through the week. No urea or NH4, all NO3

Micros I dose this 3x per week

Fe - .12 (.08 dtpa and .04 gluconate)
Mn - .025
B -.027
Zn - .021
Cu - .0019
Mo - .001
Ni - .00025

I add 10 ppm Mg with water changes. Water column Ca and Mg stays around 40 and 20

~75% weekly water change volume

I use straight tap water with KH 5-6. In 2 soil tanks I drop the KH to 0-1 using HCL for soft water species and really delicate stuff
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post #1794 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-29-2020, 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Hi Kishore! I dose all tanks roughly the same regardless of soil or sand. I may go up or down with everything based on plant mass but I dont make any adjustments between them

Current macros, weekly total 21/6/25 divided in 3 equal doses through the week. No urea or NH4, all NO3

Micros I dose this 3x per week

Fe - .12 (.08 dtpa and .04 gluconate)
Mn - .025
B -.027
Zn - .021
Cu - .0019
Mo - .001
Ni - .00025

I add 10 ppm Mg with water changes. Water column Ca and Mg stays around 40 and 20

~75% weekly water change volume

I use straight tap water with KH 5-6. In 2 soil tanks I drop the KH to 0-1 using HCL for soft water species and really delicate stuff
Thanks joe for sharing,

B,Zn,Mn looks almost half of some of your older versions
Mo, Ni,Cu have gone down a little bit.

Looks like overall a little lean on micro's. Any reason you would like to share, just want to see if its applicable for our tanks as well.

Also, any reason you are back to gluconate , i guess previously you had assumed it to be bad with your tap PH.
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post #1795 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-29-2020, 07:41 PM
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If you have time for your long story on discontinuing urea, I'd be interested. I dose only urea and fish food. Also, without urea, is the Ni still included because you have a batch previously made with it, or do you see value to it even without the urea?

I dose about 4x the iron you do, but it's all gluc and is gone within a half-hour (can't do DTPA due to UVS). However, I'm about 25% the level of all your other metals, except Zn, which is a little higher.

Amazing how much room there is for formula variations!
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post #1796 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-29-2020, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
~75% weekly water change volume
This is key.

Your macros numbers would be stated as less for those used to quoting 50% water change. Just saying it is not as rich as it seems.

And good to see the latest micro dosing.

How about some farm tanks shots sometime? Need more plant eye candy around here!

FWIW, here is the 50% EI equivalent.....14-4-17
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Last edited by Greggz; 08-30-2020 at 12:19 AM. Reason: Addition
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post #1797 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-30-2020, 01:51 AM
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This is key.
You're right, but the dosing frequency is also quite important. There is a large accumulation variability difference between daily and weekly dosing (my traces are daily) and I've often wondered if dosing would be better if all nutrients were done after the water change, no matter when the water change takes place. For example; @burr740's dosing of .025ppm Mn every-other-day results in swings of ~.03ppm after the w/c up to ~.13ppm before the w/c. Could this variabilty cause under-performance at one end or the other - or both, e.g.; is .03 too little and is .13 too much? Of course, this may bring up the spectre of the Toxicity Wars.

If he (and I, at my respective levels) were to dose .05ppm only after each w/c, the levels would hold consistently at about .07ppm, ignoring uptake. I think it all comes down to finding the sweet spot. Is that an average of his .03-.13 spread, i.e.; his plants may only benefit at some point along the curve for a day or two or does uptake level it out? All rhetorical questions at this point.
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post #1798 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-30-2020, 03:01 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks joe for sharing,

B,Zn,Mn looks almost half of some of your older versions
Mo, Ni,Cu have gone down a little bit.

Looks like overall a little lean on micro's. Any reason you would like to share, just want to see if its applicable for our tanks as well.

Also, any reason you are back to gluconate , i guess previously you had assumed it to be bad with your tap PH.
Ive gone down with some of the non-Fe stuff. There's a few species that just do better with less. Not necessarily "sensitive" species, stuff like Mini Myrio, Penthorum (of all plants) Rotala indica, Didiplis, half a dozen others.

Gluconate, as mentioned above things just seem better with a little of that in the mix.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
If you have time for your long story on discontinuing urea, I'd be interested. I dose only urea and fish food. Also, without urea, is the Ni still included because you have a batch previously made with it, or do you see value to it even without the urea?

I dose about 4x the iron you do, but it's all gluc and is gone within a half-hour (can't do DTPA due to UVS). However, I'm about 25% the level of all your other metals, except Zn, which is a little higher.

Amazing how much room there is for formula variations!
Ive kept the Ni because the retail version will have it so I wanna continue using it to make sure the recipe as a whole works good. Another reason, based on very limited research I found, apparently it assists in the utilization of Fe. Although there's not much info out there about that.


The deal with urea and NH4 spans 3-4 years of using it for periods of time and then not. Ive never seen dramatic positive results from it like you'd expect, thats in sand, soil, various KH. And every single time I stop it, immediately its like a light comes on and several things perk up, water turns crystal clear, global pearling increases.

And in spite of seeing this happen repeatedly over time, I always decide to go back to one or the other because, well, on paper its supposed to be really good. But for me it never is and Im done with trying it.

I ran really high Zn levels for a while just testing it out. Guys from the custom micro thread may remember. It never seemed to hurt anything, but its a compound that according to Mueller can inhibit Fe (might be why you need so much) so I took it back down, eventually to around where it is now. You can definitely run too low however. One of the first signs is abnormally short internodes, specifically in Rotala Mac varieties. Leaves growing right on top of one another, otherwise healthy perfectly formed leaves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greggz View Post
This is key.

Your macros numbers would be stated as less for those used to quoting 50% water change. Just saying it is not as rich as it seems.

And good to see the latest micro dosing.

How about some farm tanks shots sometime? Need more plant eye candy around here!
Yeah thats why I started always listing my WC volumes because it does makes a big difference. Those number look like EI but its a lot less with bigger water changes

Pics you say?

Buce wall in the Dutch is coming along nice. Gonna split them one more time about a month out (deadline is late OCT) Hard to tell in the pic but there's plenty right now to fill in the gaps




Somebody come trim this 50 for me. I'll supply a face mask and the scissors




Here's the latest 75 gal with Landen I set up around the first of the year. Still blasting CO2 straight into a powerhead. Best growing tank I have.




New Syngonanthus sp Meta, discovered last year in Colombia. Rotala ramosior cramer to the right. The red stem behind is Ludwigia glandulosa



Sunsets doing great. They grow almost as well in sand with a higher KH.





In front are a couple new species also from Colombia last year. Hyptis laciniata, low growing flowery stem plant that creeps along the sub. On the right is Bacopa sp CSP. I like this plant, it stays short and branches a lot. The tops get various shades of yellow-orange-pink. Makes a great midground bush. I may use it in the Dutch, still deciding on what species to use in a couple of spots.
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Last edited by burr740; 08-30-2020 at 04:03 AM. Reason: ,
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post #1799 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-30-2020, 03:16 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Deanna View Post
You're right, but the dosing frequency is also quite important. There is a large accumulation variability difference between daily and weekly dosing (my traces are daily) and I've often wondered if dosing would be better if all nutrients were done after the water change, no matter when the water change takes place. For example; @burr740's dosing of .025ppm Mn every-other-day results in swings of ~.03ppm after the w/c up to ~.13ppm before the w/c. Could this variabilty cause under-performance at one end or the other - or both, e.g.; is .03 too little and is .13 too much? Of course, this may bring up the spectre of the Toxicity Wars.

If he (and I, at my respective levels) were to dose .05ppm only after each w/c, the levels would hold consistently at about .07ppm, ignoring uptake. I think it all comes down to finding the sweet spot. Is that an average of his .03-.13 spread, i.e.; his plants may only benefit at some point along the curve for a day or two or does uptake level it out? All rhetorical questions at this point.
Yeah you cant ignore uptake and that makes those swing numbers purely speculative. One day soon Im going to start daily micros at the same weekly total and see if I can tell any difference. Some of the best plant growers I know dose micros daily.

If one was really curious about the levels through the week, the thing to do is order 3 ICP tests from amazon and test the water on days 1, 3 and 6 to get an accurate view of whats happening.

Another question is, does the hypothetical swing even matter? As long as the ratios are such that nothing is interfering with something else, and the plants always have enough.. but not too much, a sweet spot if you will. Does a ppm fluctuation within that range cause any issues? Im thinking no but that is also speculation. Its an interesting discussion nonetheless
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Last edited by burr740; 08-30-2020 at 03:34 AM. Reason: k
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post #1800 of 1818 (permalink) Old 08-30-2020, 04:01 AM
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I've been on urea for a long time. Maybe I'll try a switch to NO3 and see if I can truly distinguish a difference - confirmation bias is hard to overcome. I do have ~10ppm NO3 always present, though, from in-tank BB conversion. Still, I think I can comfortably add up to K levels the NO3 for the test.

Regarding micro testing, I was thinking that all that would be needed would be to test just before and after a w/c to bracket the end points. Then, since we know what we're adding, uptake should be obvious, assuming no oxidation. Unfortunately, the one ICP company is not yet able to test these levels. I don't know about the German company's capabilities. I'm hoping that ICP-Analysis will soon install that expected capability.
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