Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank (New Video 12-28-2019) - Page 126 - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1876 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 03:52 PM
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Well, I am not so sure about that.

Dosing and accumulated levels are highly dependent on water change frequency and percentage. As we discussed a few pages back, can make a big difference.

Personally I have a spot marked with a sharpie near the back of the tank. I take the water level down to that exact spot every week. So my post water change measured fert levels are very, very consistent.

Just saying if your N levels were uber high like you said, then something made that happen. And the reset may be helping. But there is some reason they got there in the first place. With regular water changes of the same percentage, there should be a limit to accumulation, and it should be predictable.

So now I am wondering now how your N levels got so high? Was there something else going on you hadn't considered?
I know at one point fab had reduced his weekly water changes to bi-monthly? @fablau is this still the case?
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post #1877 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 04:55 PM Thread Starter
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I know at one point fab had reduced his weekly water changes to bi-monthly? @fablau is this still the case?
Yeah that is an interesting point, and is a good opportunity to illustrate how important water changes are to the EI method (or whatever you call what some of us are doing).

So lets take a typical tank heavily planted with a moderate fish load. The line to focus on is the end of week NO3. You can see how just going from 1 week to 2 weeks between water changes affects the NO3 accumulation (End of week in second chart is really end of two weeks). Not saying this is the case with Fab, but good food for thought.




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post #1878 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 06:52 PM
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Gotta love how math works that way.

Now the interesting twist - I decide to lower my dosing AND switch to a bi-weekly water change. After 10 weeks I end up much closer to the 12ppm accumulation than the 34ppm accumulation.
So, is it better to dose less and let the accumulation build up over time? but only "freshen" the water every 2 weeks.
How about even less dosing and go with monthly water changes?

Personally, I would rather stay with weekly water changes and dump in more ferts. If I mess up (which happens enough), my reset is usually less than 7 days away and maxing out the water column should only be 5 weeks away.

Should something happen and I need to make a change - you do a big water change, change your ferts, then have to wait close to 10 weeks for your bi-weekly setup to level out. Not for me.

Also @Greggz, you have mentioned on more than one occasion changing something slowly (Macro level, or whatever). Given your observation on accumulation the changes you make could take a bit of time to truely be apparent. Now, in your case, you do 70% water changes. This "should" make your changes apparent a little quicker than those of us doing 50% water changes.
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post #1879 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 07:53 PM Thread Starter
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Gotta love how math works that way.

Now the interesting twist - I decide to lower my dosing AND switch to a bi-weekly water change. After 10 weeks I end up much closer to the 12ppm accumulation than the 34ppm accumulation.
So, is it better to dose less and let the accumulation build up over time? but only "freshen" the water every 2 weeks.
How about even less dosing and go with monthly water changes?
Well you really open up a can of worms there. Less dosing and more water changes sounds like PPS to me.

And maybe I'm wrong, but it seems I don't see too many tanks here that are successful high tech with that method.

And I certainly don't want to start up a water change war (they can be brutal!), but if I have learned one thing in decades of fish keeping, it's that water changes are the single best thing you can do to for the health of your fish. So if you have a decent amount of fish in your tank, to me water changes are well worth it.

Now a tank with very few or no fish, maybe there is a modified EI water change schedule that would work. I think @fablau was doing this for awhile, or maybe still is? Would be curious to hear his thoughts??

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Originally Posted by Immortal1 View Post
Also @Greggz, you have mentioned on more than one occasion changing something slowly (Macro level, or whatever). Given your observation on accumulation the changes you make could take a bit of time to truely be apparent. Now, in your case, you do 70% water changes. This "should" make your changes apparent a little quicker than those of us doing 50% water changes.
Oh my more fun with math. Yes, in week two I am pretty close to stable levels (week 5). Takes a little more time at 50%. Now that's not the reason I change 70%. It's mostly because of the Bows, although I've always thought both fish and plants love a good water change.




And why not extrapolate it even further. Let's say we are a bit lazy and only change 30%. Note how the accumulated levels increase? So the point is, the percentage of water changed really does affect accumulated values over time.

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post #1880 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 08:11 PM
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Like @Immortal1 states, we can obtain the same ppm water column values by by using different dosage amounts, water change amounts, and how often WCs are performed. Somewhere I have a spreadsheet that shows the differences between zero and 50% water changes, but darn if I can find it. But the big disadvantage it would be very difficult to compare with others what work outs best. It makes it much easier to compare if everyone does weekly water changes.
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post #1881 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 08:15 PM
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@Greggz - And I certainly don't want to start up a water change war (they can be brutal!), but if I have learned one thing in decades of fish keeping, it's that water changes are the single best thing you can do to for the health of your fish. So if you have a decent amount of fish in your tank, to me water changes are well worth it.

Agree 100%

Oh my more fun with math. Yes, in week two I am pretty close to stable levels (week 5). Takes a little more time at 50%. Now that's not the reason I change 70%. It's mostly because of the Bows, although I've always thought both fish and plants love a good water change.

LOL, so after you buy your new tank, the lights, etc... make sure you buy a calculator!!! Most important item! Gotta love a little math. Now, IF that was the only variable to a successful tank - mine would be perfect
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post #1882 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 08:18 PM
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@Greggz: One item I've noticed is that when using the weekly worksheet, there should be an initial starting tank value given for Nitrate(or whatever parameter is being used). Reason being is we all have established tanks and we're not starting at zero as if it's a new tank. Because we're typically tweaking the ppms, our tanks are probably reaching equilibrium much quicker, say in the 2 to 3 week range as opposed to 5 weeks.
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post #1883 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 08:40 PM Thread Starter
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@Greggz: One item I've noticed is that when using the weekly worksheet, there should be an initial starting tank value given for Nitrate(or whatever parameter is being used). Reason being is we all have established tanks and we're not starting at zero as if it's a new tank. Because we're typically tweaking the ppms, our tanks are probably reaching equilibrium much quicker, say in the 2 to 3 week range as opposed to 5 weeks.
Yeah Ken you are right. I guess it depends on how insane we want to get (pretty far for me it turns out!).

And the idea when I put this together was to help illustrate how water changes calculate into the EI dosing equation. Then I also have the daily levels worksheet, which I put together to show how front end vs every other day dosing affects daily levels throughout the week.

But if you really want to, enter in an extra amount of NO3 into the week one dose to compensate for what is already in the tank. And then manually enter weeks 2 through 5. Will get you where you want to go.

On a side note moved Ambulia over next to the Pantanal yesterday. Really caught my eye today, makes a nice contrast.



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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Keating1 View Post
Like @Immortal1 states, we can obtain the same ppm water column values by by using different dosage amounts, water change amounts, and how often WCs are performed. Somewhere I have a spreadsheet that shows the differences between zero and 50% water changes, but darn if I can find it. But the big disadvantage it would be very difficult to compare with others what work outs best. It makes it much easier to compare if everyone does weekly water changes.
You know, every so often a no water change thread comes up here. Putting it politely, when someone actually posts a picture of one of those tanks, it's not something I would want to emulate.

Now a modified plan? Keeping levels steady? Might be viable.

But again, if you are keeping fish, why fool around? Change the water weekly and your fish will thank you.
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post #1884 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-02-2018, 10:31 PM
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You know, every so often a no water change thread comes up here. Putting it politely, when someone actually posts a picture of one of those tanks, it's not something I would want to emulate.
Great point. I see it all the time, people will talk about their no water change, no filter, no this or no that tank, but very rarely post pictures. It's their prerogative, they can do as they please and post what they please, but a picture is worth a thousand words.

I'm not saying my way is the right way, or my tanks are perfect. Everyones idea of a nice tank is different, and I should add if you are happy with your setup that's all that matters..


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post #1885 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 04:24 PM
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@Greggz you mention that you use ro to remove sodium from water. I'm also using sodium bicarbonate to raise kh and sodium phosphate to raise po4.
Is there something bad with sodium?
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post #1886 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 06:53 PM
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@Greggz you mention that you use ro to remove sodium from water. I'm also using sodium bicarbonate to raise kh and sodium phosphate to raise po4.
Is there something bad with sodium?

Too much Na+ will negatively impact K+ uptake. NA+ build up in cells will also become toxic.

KHCO3 and KH2PO4 only supply plant nutrients where as Na2CO3 and sodium phosphate will supply Na (which is of no use to our plants)

I use KHCO3 as my main source of K and CO3, killing 2 birds with one stone. No need for additional K2SO4 dosing.
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post #1887 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 07:00 PM
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Too much Na+ will negatively impact K+ uptake. NA+ build up in cells will also become toxic.

KHCO3 and KH2PO4 only supply plant nutrients where as Na2CO3 and sodium phosphate will supply Na (which is of no use to our plants)

I use KHCO3 as my main source of K and CO3, killing 2 birds with one stone. No need for additional K2SO4 dosing.
What's too much?
I thought that plants also need Na.
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post #1888 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 08:08 PM
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What's too much?
I thought that plants also need Na.
Every plant species has a different tolerance level of Na+.

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Plants require 17 essential elements for growth: carbon (C), hydrogen (H), oxygen (O), nitrogen (N), phosphorus (P), potassium (K), sulfur (S), calcium (Ca), magnesium (Mg), boron (B), chlorine (Cl), copper (Cu), iron (Fe), manganese (Mn), molybdenum (Mo), nickel (Ni), and zinc (Zn).
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post #1889 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-03-2018, 10:33 PM Thread Starter
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@Greggz you mention that you use ro to remove sodium from water. I'm also using sodium bicarbonate to raise kh and sodium phosphate to raise po4.
Is there something bad with sodium?
@Quagulator summed it up pretty well.

In general, plants don't like sodium. Can get away with it things like crypts/swords/anubias, but when you get to higher tech harder to care for stems, it will make things more difficult. It's also a matter of degree. A little might be fine, but too much could create issues.

I was using softened well (sodium) water for a while, and while I managed alright, things became much easier and plants reached more full potential when I went to RO water.

So personally I wouldn't be adding sodium. And unless your KH is extremely low, no need to raise KH at all.
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post #1890 of 3071 (permalink) Old 12-04-2018, 06:55 AM
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@Quagulator summed it up pretty well.

In general, plants don't like sodium. Can get away with it things like crypts/swords/anubias, but when you get to higher tech harder to care for stems, it will make things more difficult. It's also a matter of degree. A little might be fine, but too much could create issues.

I was using softened well (sodium) water for a while, and while I managed alright, things became much easier and plants reached more full potential when I went to RO water.

So personally I wouldn't be adding sodium. And unless your KH is extremely low, no need to raise KH at all.
Yeah kh is 0 as I am using 100% ro, so I need something to raise it a bit.
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