Co2 injecting with no fish. - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2016, 10:49 PM Thread Starter
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Co2 injecting with no fish.

Hey guys,

I have been doing a DSM 30 gallon for the last month now with Ada substrate and some carpeting plants. You can see my journal here. https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/12...substrate.html

My question is when i am cycling the tank once i fill it with water and no fish in the tank, how much co2 can i inject into the tank? I want to give the plants a lot of co2 for as long as i can before putting fish in.

Now obviously i need to worry about Ph swings for the risk of algae but how much co2 is to much? I will have to dial back the co2 slowly before getting it fish ready to allow the plants time to get use to the environment.

Thanks

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-03-2016, 10:55 PM
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I would go for the standard 1 full degree drop in pH. Use the "fish-free" time to get it dialed in. It would be a nice luxury to not worry about fish as you tweak it.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-04-2016, 12:31 AM
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The nitrifying bacteria do not do well with low pH. While I agree to use this time to work with the CO2, I can see problems with the fishless cycle, and when you are ready to add fish they will probably be coming from a tank without CO2, so you will have to turn it way down to acclimate the fish, then turn it up gradually over several days.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-06-2016, 08:49 AM
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It's never a good idea to add too much CO2 into your tank from several reasons:

1) According to scientific studies some aquatic plants can tolerate only up to about 40 ppm CO2 dissolved in water. If the CO2 level exceeds this threshold, they become "poisoned" and their growth rate declines.

2) As Diana already noted, too much CO2 may cause too low pH which may not be good for some microorganisms (although some algae species don't do well under pH below 6 also).

3) As Diana noted, if you use elevated levels of CO2 in your fishless tank, once you add your fish in, they won't feel good. So it is much better to slowly raise the CO2 after you put your fish there.

4) According to scientific studies some fish (especially the juvenile stages) don't like CO2 levels exceeding 10 ppm. It may cause several kinds of problems. This is the reason also why in aquaculture the recommended levels for CO2 are 10-20 ppm. Some governments (like in Norway) enacted a law for this stating that it is not allowed more than 15 ppm CO2 in aquaculture. These numbers are based on the scientific research. Unfortunately, some hobbyists ignore it and believe (based on their subjective observations - as opposed to scientific research) that even 50-70 ppm can cause no harm.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 05:40 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel G View Post
It's never a good idea to add too much CO2 into your tank from several reasons:

1) According to scientific studies some aquatic plants can tolerate only up to about 40 ppm CO2 dissolved in water. If the CO2 level exceeds this threshold, they become "poisoned" and their growth rate declines.

2) As Diana already noted, too much CO2 may cause too low pH which may not be good for some microorganisms (although some algae species don't do well under pH below 6 also).

3) As Diana noted, if you use elevated levels of CO2 in your fishless tank, once you add your fish in, they won't feel good. So it is much better to slowly raise the CO2 after you put your fish there.

4) According to scientific studies some fish (especially the juvenile stages) don't like CO2 levels exceeding 10 ppm. It may cause several kinds of problems. This is the reason also why in aquaculture the recommended levels for CO2 are 10-20 ppm. Some governments (like in Norway) enacted a law for this stating that it is not allowed more than 15 ppm CO2 in aquaculture. These numbers are based on the scientific research. Unfortunately, some hobbyists ignore it and believe (based on their subjective observations - as opposed to scientific research) that even 50-70 ppm can cause no harm.
Thanks for all the great info!

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 05:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel G View Post
4) According to scientific studies some fish (especially the juvenile stages) don't like CO2 levels exceeding 10 ppm. It may cause several kinds of problems. This is the reason also why in aquaculture the recommended levels for CO2 are 10-20 ppm. Some governments (like in Norway) enacted a law for this stating that it is not allowed more than 15 ppm CO2 in aquaculture. These numbers are based on the scientific research. Unfortunately, some hobbyists ignore it and believe (based on their subjective observations - as opposed to scientific research) that even 50-70 ppm can cause no harm.
Do you know the article you read this on? Is any of it permanent health issues? I am not denying it, I am simply interested in reading on it. I am a fish over plants guy myself so I am concerned about the well being of my fish. I suppose it can't be too bad (depending on co2 concentration, fish species, duration of exposure, water chemistry, etc.) given the amount of people who keep fish in co2 injected tanks with no reports of long-term ill effects (besides immediate co2 gassing of fish), but I am still curious, if there are any scientific studies showcasing the effects that abnormal levels of co2 can cause of fish. I will try looking up some studies myself, but would be interested in seeing the source you read.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 07:47 AM
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CO2 pollution effects

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Originally Posted by WaterLife View Post
Do you know the article you read this on? Is any of it permanent health issues? I am not denying it, I am simply interested in reading on it. I am a fish over plants guy myself so I am concerned about the well being of my fish. I suppose it can't be too bad (depending on co2 concentration, fish species, duration of exposure, water chemistry, etc.) given the amount of people who keep fish in co2 injected tanks with no reports of long-term ill effects (besides immediate co2 gassing of fish), but I am still curious, if there are any scientific studies showcasing the effects that abnormal levels of co2 can cause of fish. I will try looking up some studies myself, but would be interested in seeing the source you read.
Here are some articles I have read (you can find many more with Google):
1) www.int-res.com/articles/theme/m373p295.pdf
Here you have an extensive literature on CO2 toxicity for aquatic organisms at the end of the article.
2) Chronic CO2 exposure markedly increases the incidence of cataracts in juvenile Atlantic cod Gadus morhua L.
I had a conversation with Damian Moran (one of the scientists), and he recommended me to not exceed 10-15 ppm CO2 if I want be safe with my freshwater fish.
3) http://www.researchgate.net/profile/...8c4b359b73.pdf
4) http://www.scor-int.org/High-CO2_Wor...tsuAtsushi.pdf
5) The effect of carbon dioxide on growth and metabolism in juvenile turbot Scophthalmus maximus L.

Also note that not all ill effects may be visible with the naked eye. I compare the effects of elevated CO2 levels with air pollution. For example, in many China cities (like Beijng) the air pollution exceeds the permitted values up to 30 times in some parameters. See the picture:


The AQI values should not exceed 30 over 24h.

Now, do you think that there are no people living there in these areas? And do they have children? Of course, they have. And do these children go outside and play there with other children? Sure! So at first glance you see no ill effects on people. But when you look at the statistics of respiratory diseases, heart diseases, cancer, sickness rate, mortality, lifetime period etc. then all these factors show you very clearly that the pollution has a direct impact on the health of the people.

With CO2 or any other nutrient pollutant it is very similar. I don't say this to freak you out, but it is true that many hobbyists overlook these things. If the fish won't die or have no clear visible symptoms they think it is OK. But if we would make a dissection or study it in controlled environment (like scientists do), we may come to different conclusions.

We adopted to use CO2 gas in our tanks without seeking to find out first if it may have any negative effect on our critters (or even plants).
=> We even stoped to use our horse sense ("What CO2 levels are common in tropical rivers with the lush growth of all species of aquatic plants?" So why do we use more?).
We adopted to use Estimative Index fertilizing method without seeking to find out first if it may have any negative effect on our critters.
We adopted to use different gadgets (like Twinstar) without ... it's always the same. Some crazy guy tells us that it's safe, and we just believe him (without any verification).
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Last edited by 58417; 01-07-2016 at 08:05 AM. Reason: one more thing ...
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 08:51 AM
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Can alway's run you tank while expierimenting with CO2 level's and nutrient delivery without fishes for a few month's.
This allow's one to observe plant growth,and tinker with CO2 without fear of what may or may not affect a particular species of fish or invert.
Also can see plant growth result's from only the nutrient's you or I add, and adjust up or down as plant's might indicate.
Do keep in mind all of the info shared here but also search out other sources to help with your effort's.
Also keep in mind that for every opinion scientific or not,you can find those who will have different expierience.
Choose a method ,and or person who is achieving what you wish to achieve ,and follow their advice's, lest you wind up trying to incorporate bit's of advice,and differing method's into your plan at which point you can become easily confused if it does not work and give up.
Stick with a method,and learn it well,then try another.
Stick with the person whose truth you believe and can see evidence from and who is using the same method you wish to try.
That way you, can honestly say you gave it your best effort.
Be leary of those who attempt to run down another method ,and or another member.
They are often more interested in hatin the player more so than helping you with your goal's.
Don't take much reading to see it neither.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 11:07 AM
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Be leary of those who attempt to run down another method ,and or another member ... Don't take much reading to see it neither.
Exactly! Be leery of those who give you so many advices while doing nothing for the hobby to find the truth themselves. Also, don't take much (scientific) reading as this way you can find something that may open your eyes about so many myths among hobbyists. And finally, no matter how silly opinions other members may have and what myths they may broadcast, it's not nice to point that out. We should stay in all the myths no matter how bad we feel about it, or how intensively they destroy the nature of life.
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcel G View Post
Exactly! Be leery of those who give you so many advices while doing nothing for the hobby to find the truth themselves. Also, don't take much (scientific) reading as this way you can find something that may open your eyes about so many myths among hobbyists. And finally, no matter how silly opinions other members may have and what myths they may broadcast, it's not nice to point that out. We should stay in all the myths no matter how bad we feel about it, or how intensively they destroy the nature of life.
Thank you for making my point!
Your musing's are duly noted, and your disdain for other member's as well.
I and a good many other's take a fair bit of interest in your word's but only up to the point where you flounder and begin your ranting.
It is almost saddening and semi comical to boot.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 12:14 PM
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Double standards

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Thank you for making my point!
Your musing's are duly noted, and your disdain for other member's as well.
I and a good many other's take a fair bit of interest in your word's but only up to the point where you flounder and begin your ranting.
It is almost saddening and semi comical to boot.
Dear roadmaster,
I really don't care whether you are interested in my words or not (I don't say them for you). I do my own research and experiments on things I want to know or want to verify. I also share my results with others, and make comments where I feel it should be made to balance the unbalanced statements or myths that are taken by others without any questioning. You are a good example of a man who "look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" (or I would add, "in the eyes of others"). You constantly criticize me of attacking other members or methods, but you never use the same measure (standard) for others. I can cite you dozens of T.Barr's posts where he throws dirt on respected scientists just to show they are all wrong while he is right. If it's true that I want to run him (or his method) down, then it's much more true that he wants to run down all the people who disagree with him and try to point out on his mistakes. And you yourselves seem to do exactly the same as he. I speak against other methods or people if I feel they are ignorant of other important aspects of truth. But I always try to use some good arguments in the first place. You (on the other hand) seem to only criticize without putting any solid arguments on the table. I like a discussion where both sides try to use good arguments to support their claims, and at the same time they think of the arguments of others. This way we can move our hobby closer to the truth. So my effort may seem comical to you, but I love our hobby and want it to stay on firm foundations (not on sand).
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 01-07-2016, 05:43 PM
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I would start out with a little overkill and then dial it back over time before you add fish. Not worth screwing up and getting algae or stunted growth due to too much light / not enough nutrients.

Aim for about a 1.5 degree drop in pH and tone it down over a few weeks until you hit a sweet spot. Just be careful with the light... IMO you will have more issues with too high of light levels when starting out vs CO2 levels.

I generally agree with roadmaster that you should focus on getting the best growth possible without fish until you are seeing good results at reasonable CO2 levels. I also agree that instead of bilndly following someones advice is not always the best way to go. Experiment for yourself to see what gives best results.


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