What deficiency and plant ID - with pics - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 03:47 AM Thread Starter
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What deficiency and plant ID - with pics

Hi,

I am struggling with my 20g tank, and would appreciate help identifying deficiency or imbalance.
24"x12"x16"H
Two filters (AC70 and Top Fin 20)
24" Aquatic Life T5HO one bulb 24W 6400K, 4hr on, 2hr off, 4.5hr on
DIY CO2 (2 x 2L bottles)
Inert natural color gravel 2" deep
Ammonia=0
Nitrite=0
NO3=30~50ppm
CO2=don't know
PH=7.4~7.6
GH, KH (don't know)
50% water change/week (tap water has Ca=30+ppm, Mg=8+ppm)

Daily dosing x 7d/w
Macro
+ NO3=0ppm
+ PO4=0.1563ppm/d (1.10ppm/w)
+ K+=1.8337ppm/d (12.84ppm/w)
Micro/trace
+Fe=0.0359ppm/d (0.2514ppm/w)
+Zn=0.0021ppm/d (0.0144ppm/w)
+Cu=0.0005ppm/d (0.0036ppm/w)
+Mn=0.0103ppm/d (0.0718ppm/w)
+B=0.0067ppm/d (0.0467ppm/w)
+Mo=0.0003ppm/d (0.0022ppm/w)

Fish (30 barbs and tetras)
Flake and tiny pellet (0.2~0.3g per day)

Plants:
Hygrophila Corymbosa (what deficiency?)
Java Fern (what deficiency?)
Crypt
Moss Ball (not in pic)
Jungle Val (not in pic. no growth last two months)
unknown (please ID)

Thanks.
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post #2 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 04:16 AM
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In the first two pictures that appears to be caused by fish. Nutrient deficiencies cause
holes in old leaves, not new ones.
The last picture is mostly too far away to see the deficiencies well enough except for the
Java Fern which looks familiar, but I've seen this on leaves which snails laid eggs on
while the leaves were in early development.
So I do this in reverse. This is a link to a very good dosing list. Compare it to what you are doing. I think you may find some serious discrepancies.
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/11...n-recipes.html

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...

Last edited by Raymond S.; 11-14-2015 at 02:15 PM. Reason: edit
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post #3 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 04:25 AM
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Possible manganese toxicity.
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post #4 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 05:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorfox View Post
5ml/20 Gallons

KNO3 93 gm (approximately 17 3/4 teaspoons)
KH2PO4 14 gm (approximately 2 1/2 teaspoons)
Plantex CSM+B 58 gm (approximately 13 1/2 teaspoons)
Optional: K2SO4 38 gm (approximately 6 teaspoons)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond S. View Post
This is awesome dude...
Thanks for the link.
My setup's DIY CO2 is the limiting factor of the 3 (light, CO2, nutrients). My existing dosing is a variant of the above, using K2SO4 instead of KNO3, to account for surplus NO3 from high bio load. I could use 1/2 of the amounts to match DIY CO2.

Bump:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solcielo lawrencia View Post
Possible manganese toxicity.
I've been following the toxicity thread. This is the trace mix I use. Is Mn too much?
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post #5 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 05:18 AM
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That's basically CSM+B without the magnesium. Don't know if it's too much manganese. Need to conduct experiments to gather information and then make an informed opinion on it.
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post #6 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 06:51 AM
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It's also a serious amount over the Copper on the list from Zorfox. Even to the point that
I would wonder if a shrimp could survive in there.
Is there some reason that you just don't get the CSM+B and use all of the ingredients
from the list ?
I understand the reason for the K2SO4. I use the 5/10g dosing from that list, but I switch the proportions of the KNO3 and the K2SO4 for the same reason you do. Except
that I don't have that much plants and they just aren't using it up so it builds on me.
I also reduce the amount to 2 ml, but dose that twice a week to spread out the Micros.
I just use Excel but I know the micros only last about 2 or 3 days. Add that to my lower
level of plants and 2ml of both the macros and micros dosed twice a week instead of three is what seems to work in my tank well.
But you would eliminate that as a problem if you switched to CSM+B for your micros.
Since the dosing list is based on CSM+B and at least two of the ingredients are off by quite a bit says it may be what is wrong. Only changing that will prove one way or
the other.

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
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post #7 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 06:56 AM
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That's the same concentration of Cu as CSM+B but without the Mg.
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post #8 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 07:31 AM
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He copied a label which list the levels of the ingredients.
His list showed "Copper (CU) 0.10%
The dosing list gives a list of the level of each nutrient that you will get with those doses.
It list copper as 0.007
So I listed the publication which I got my info from.
So can/will you list the publication where you got your info from ?

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
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post #9 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks Solcielo lawrencia and Raymond S.
The trace mix is from a local hydroponics shop. Our city water analysis show Ca=30+ppm and Mg=8+ppm, I would speculate this is considered by the local shop hence without Mg. I put the numbers in MS Excel to help myself mixing and dosing, and can scale down/up easily. Tank water volume is more likely 19gallon with gravel and ornaments.
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Last edited by max88; 11-14-2015 at 12:47 PM. Reason: added sulphate numbers
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post #10 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 12:40 PM
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Typically hygros need additional potassium. Start there. Add a large dose. See if there is improvement.
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post #11 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 02:10 PM
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The images appear to be caused from fish, snails or garden gnomes. True deficiency usually results in many small round holes.

If there are plants that appear that way then I agree with Bruce. Add more potassium. In fact, you can safely double that amount. If you see improvement then you can reduce the dosing until you see problems again.

@Raymond. The trace mix he listed is very close to Plantex. The copper levels listed in my thread are the results of one dose in the tank.
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post #12 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 02:21 PM
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@Raymond. The trace mix he listed is very close to Plantex. The copper levels listed in my thread are the results of one dose in the tank.

Zorfox...thank you for making this clear.

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
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post #13 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceF View Post
Typically hygros need additional potassium. Start there. Add a large dose. See if there is improvement.
How large is "large dose"? Hygros don't use that much extra potassium. If pinholes still persist, it's not a potassium deficiency but a micro-toxicity. However, excess K+ in the water column can offset high concentrations of micros by crowding them out, limiting toxicity. However, this does not remove the toxicity.
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post #14 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 09:37 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceF View Post
Typically hygros need additional potassium. Start there. Add a large dose. See if there is improvement.
Yup, I have up'ed the K, since I recently read about that. Now it's wait and see.

I have 1 Siamese algae eater in the tank, I had forgot to mentioned. It may have damaged the leaves. The tiger barbs and rosy barbs may have nipped on the leaves too.

Did scheduled weekly 50% water change. NO3 is at 20ppm.
Maintained macro dosing, reduced micro to 1/3 (will reduce further to 1/4 or even 1/6 if necessary).

By the way, borrowed a PAR meter from a friend. The one T5HO has 30par at the substrate, I may need to add the second T5HO bulb.

Thanks all for your posts.
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post #15 of 28 (permalink) Old 11-14-2015, 10:44 PM Thread Starter
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2009 ~ 2011: beginner's luck. didn't know anything about dosing
2012 ~ 2015 (present): disaster.
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Last edited by max88; 11-16-2015 at 03:12 AM. Reason: added 2013 full tank shot
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