Recently started PPS-PRO think the new growth is stunted - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 09:31 PM Thread Starter
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Recently started PPS-PRO think the new growth is stunted

Just this past weekend (the 24th) I switched from EI to PPS-pro. Leading up to this I had a week of no dosing with a 50% wc and then a 40% or so wc the day before the first PPS-Pro Dosage. Some general info about my tank: 40g Breeder CO2 injection at 1-2 bps probably closer to 2. Eco Complete substrate 2x Kessil A150WE 5-6 inches from water surface. Fairly heavily stocked for a 40g. Have 2 angelfish 5 harley rasporas 5 blackskirt tetras and a bristlenose pleco. Nitrates were high but the water changes before this weekend seemed to bring them down to around 5-20ppm I believe but the test kit colors at those ranges all look the same to me haha. Phosphates may be a bit high as well maybe 2-3ppm. I dose about an hour before lights on and the CO2 turns on an hour before lights on. I have the lights on for 12 hours a day. I was looking at some of the plant deficiencies and can't seem to determine what I am doing wrong. The algae I was seeing hasn't completely stopped growing from when my levels were much higher with EI plus lack of testing for a few weeks and nitrates were through the roof and algae was going wild. Anyways algae hasn't stopped but is more tolerable now. The growth I'm seeing on my pearl weed which was growing really well previously now seems to be growing super thin leaves instead of the normal growth. Its really been not long since I've started using PPS-Pro so it may be to early to judge. What would you guys think to be the issue? Are my lights on too long whilst nutrient dosing is somewhat low for such a long photo period? Could it be an iron deficiency? I have iron but haven't been dosing regularly because PPS-Pro doesn't seem to call for it. If you all need pictures of the new growth let me know. I'm eager to get my dosing right but realize that this is still early in the dosing and may see things take off better here soon.
Let me know if I've left crucial information out.
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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 09:53 PM
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CSM+B contains Iron.
Get a timer and set it for no more than 8 hrs till optimum plant growth is there and then not over 9. If you wish both A.M. and P.M. viewing then put a no light segment in the mid day time to stretch those 8 hrs to different times during the day. But I would not do less them 3.5 hrs in any one of the two as less than three hrs doesn't give plants enough time to start their growth properly.
EI is specifically designed for injected CO2. PPS Pro is not. EI is not set in stone but just a starting point that usually covers like 75% of tanks. Those others need a bit of change in it.
PPS Pro always needs to be tweeked when you use injected CO2 as it's too low in some nutrients and perhaps in all of them for injected CO2 tanks.
Just a guess but I'm thinking your trying to cut the water change requirements that go/w EI. You might get away/w it if you run up the amount of those nutrients which cause deficiencies and if any but the potassium get to more than 75% of the doses for the EI then you still will need the 50% water changes. If none come up that high you can do either two weeks between but the same 50% or drop the 50% to 30% and do it each week.
It is not precise but rather a judgement call that can harm the tank if not correct within unknown levels or...you can run it through a calculator under "the long term results of my dosing." You would need to do each component like KNO3 separately.
To me that's just way more trouble than just doing the 50% water changes.

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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Raymond S. View Post
CSM+B contains Iron.
Get a timer and set it for no more than 8 hrs till optimum plant growth is there and then not over 9. If you wish both A.M. and P.M. viewing then put a no light segment in the mid day time to stretch those 8 hrs to different times during the day. But I would not do less them 3.5 hrs in any one of the two as less than three hrs doesn't give plants enough time to start their growth properly.
EI is specifically designed for injected CO2. PPS Pro is not. EI is not set in stone but just a starting point that usually covers like 75% of tanks. Those others need a bit of change in it.
PPS Pro always needs to be tweeked when you use injected CO2 as it's too low in some nutrients and perhaps in all of them for injected CO2 tanks.
Just a guess but I'm thinking your trying to cut the water change requirements that go/w EI. You might get away/w it if you run up the amount of those nutrients which cause deficiencies and if any but the potassium get to more than 75% of the doses for the EI then you still will need the 50% water changes. If none come up that high you can do either two weeks between but the same 50% or drop the 50% to 30% and do it each week.
It is not precise but rather a judgement call that can harm the tank if not correct within unknown levels or...you can run it through a calculator under "the long term results of my dosing." You would need to do each component like KNO3 separately.
To me that's just way more trouble than just doing the 50% water changes.
The 50% water changes weekly weren't really bothering me. I was seeing a lot of what I think was BBA or some kind of hair. It was rough black and all over a lot of places. I just found it hard to keep up with what was happening in my tank. I probably could have worked out EI if I had put a lot more time into it however I decided I would try PPS-pro because I had heard good things. So are you thinking its too little of all or most nutrients and I should increase dosages slowly while also reducing photoperiod to around 8 hours?

40g Breeder "High-tech" tank
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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-29-2015, 10:49 PM
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No...I know you will need to add something like more Potassium for example as/if any deficiencies show up.
But the light is overkill for sure. A few plants that are very slow growing can take long hrs of light or some that are very fast can also. But remember lots of those come from tropical streams where they do get long hrs of light but also faster water currents that help keep out the algae.
I do guess that I would cut the light hrs in two jumps as yours is so long to begin/w.
Perhaps cut it by 1/2 of the balance between 8 and what you have now. I think you said 12. So down to 10 for three weeks then to 8. Adjust per your actual hrs.
As 99% of the time, just suggestions.

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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 02:04 AM
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EI was not the problem, and pps-pro won't fix it.

Growth of plants and algae is affected by three things. Light, CO2 and nutrient availability. These three things contribute to growth in that order. If you want to control growth, you should target the thing that affects growth the most, and that is light.

Either raise the light further from the water, or reduce the length of time the light is on. Reducing the length of time will probably have the biggest effect.

Feel free to edit.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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EI was not the problem, and pps-pro won't fix it.

Growth of plants and algae is affected by three things. Light, CO2 and nutrient availability. These three things contribute to growth in that order. If you want to control growth, you should target the thing that affects growth the most, and that is light.

Either raise the light further from the water, or reduce the length of time the light is on. Reducing the length of time will probably have the biggest effect.
I realize that switching from one to the other won't "fix" my issues and of course, the problem wasn't EI. My decision to switch wasn't in assumption that EI was causing the algae, it was how and what I was doing with the EI that plus maybe my fish load. However after reading a lot I had decided I wanted to use PPS instead of EI for several reasons and thought with my schedule and time I can devote to the tanks it would be best suited for me. I know that Raymond had said to somewhat ween off the light but after thinking about things I decided to take his advice but in a more "rip the bandaid off" fashion. I have lowered the photo period to 9 hours also adjusted CO2 timing to reflect this change as well. I will continue with the same daily dosing and watch growth for changes. I also raised the lights another half inch to full inch. I will keep you all updated with how the tank progresses.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 05:01 PM
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Sounds like a combination of way too much light and not nearly enough CO2. A full tank pic would also help give a better idea what you're working with.


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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 08:48 PM Thread Starter
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Sounds like a combination of way too much light and not nearly enough CO2. A full tank pic would also help give a better idea what you're working with.
Speaking of which I took some pics for updates along with some close ups of the plants I've noticed stunting. As for CO2 I recently lowered it a tiny bit because it was coming out of the bubble counter at maybe a bit faster than 2 bubbles per second. I can see tons of micro bubbles in the tank. I have an inline ceramic diffuser thats on the output of my canister filter. I can up the CO2 again if necessary. I did lower the light cycle as previously stated. From what I can tell I think my ph is dropping 1 degree but not sure exactly I will test again this weekend. I do have a drop checker but I need to replace the solution in it. I'll do that this weekend as well.
Whole tank

slightly different angle this is a week or two old but figured I'd post it anyways.

Some pennywort showing transparent leaves and some curling.

pearl weed not sure if you can see the tops of this one curling and growing funny

more pearl weed growing not so well

anacharis growing much differently from before not sure you can see this one either

even the water wisteria seems to be struggling to grow...

Sadly enough no change in the alternanthera reineickii Since I got AR two months ago I haven't seen good growth in it and its covered in algae on the lower leaves.

Rotala Rotundifolias new growth isn't doing so well either.

Sorry for the picture overload!

Last edited by PAXpress; 10-30-2015 at 08:56 PM. Reason: Meant to preview post and accidentally posted oops!
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 09:12 PM
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Regardless what the drop checker says, 1-2 bps is likely not enough for 40 gal. Closer to the ballpark is probably going to be around 4.

I would start inching the CO2 up, slowly over a few days, until the livestock show signs of discomfort. Then back it down a little so they are comfortable again.


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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-30-2015, 09:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by burr740 View Post
Regardless what the drop checker says, 1-2 bps is likely not enough for 40 gal. Closer to the ballpark is probably going to be around 4.

I would start inching the CO2 up, slowly over a few days, until the livestock show signs of discomfort. Then back it down a little so they are comfortable again.
Sounds like a plan. I also have trouble counting the bubbles because I'm just using water in the counter. Faster than 1 for sure. Probably not as fast as 3...

40g Breeder "High-tech" tank
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