Double Dosing excel for Algae - The Planted Tank Forum
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
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Double Dosing excel for Algae

If I double dose excel should I do it all at once? Or another time during the day?

Thanks!


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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 03:39 AM
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At once.


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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-26-2015, 04:04 AM
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I do mine at the same time.
The RCS seemed to have a reaction when I went from single to double doses but
since have been acting quite normal after I dose it.
Can't really say that I noticed any difference in the algae...but then what would it be like without it ?

The shortest distance between any two points is a straight line...in the opposite direction...
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 02:31 AM
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I believe the widely accepted "normal" dosage for Excel is now 2 ml per 10 gallons of water, every day, which is twice what it calls for on the bottle. But, don't use the 5 ml per 10 gallons of water starting dosage at any time.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 03:40 AM Thread Starter
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Thanks! I'll try it.


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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 04:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
But, don't use the 5 ml per 10 gallons of water starting dosage at any time.
That dose has worked great for me as part of the one-two punch.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE]don't use the 5 ml per 10 gallons of water starting dosage at any time/QUOTE]

not sure I understand quite what that means. I try to do it in the morning before lights on.


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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by schnebbles View Post

not sure I understand quite what that means. I try to do it in the morning before lights on.
Hoppy was making suggestions on dosage amounts, not time of day..

If you read the label, Seachem suggests two different dosage rates to be used at different time.

Seachem suggests starting off with a 5ml dose for every 10 gallons, and then 1ml per 10 gallons every day. They also suggest repeating 5ml per 10gallon dose rate after water changes.

Pretty much everyone here thinks that is nonsense... It is said that Excel breaks down after 24 hours. If that is true, doing a 5-times normal dose rate as a starter or after water changes is pointless. A 5x starter dose would only make sense if the product lasted for 5 days in the tank, but it doesn't.

TPT users generally dose 1-2ml per 10 gallons of tank every day, and skip the starter dose. I personally am at about 1.4ml/10 gallons (5ml a day in a 36 gallon tank.)

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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
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OK got it. Thanks!


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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattinmd View Post
Hoppy was making suggestions on dosage amounts, not time of day..

If you read the label, Seachem suggests two different dosage rates to be used at different time.

Seachem suggests starting off with a 5ml dose for every 10 gallons, and then 1ml per 10 gallons every day. They also suggest repeating 5ml per 10gallon dose rate after water changes.

Pretty much everyone here thinks that is nonsense... It is said that Excel breaks down after 24 hours. If that is true, doing a 5-times normal dose rate as a starter or after water changes is pointless. A 5x starter dose would only make sense if the product lasted for 5 days in the tank, but it doesn't.

TPT users generally dose 1-2ml per 10 gallons of tank every day, and skip the starter dose. I personally am at about 1.4ml/10 gallons (5ml a day in a 36 gallon tank.)
It's amazing what can be done by using a few more words!

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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 04:55 PM
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Originally Posted by mattinmd View Post
Pretty much everyone here thinks that is nonsense... It is said that Excel breaks down after 24 hours.
Breaks down completely? Or is 24 hours the half-life? Or is 24 hours the time it takes for plants to take-up the product from the water column? Or is 24 hours the time it takes for the glutaraldehyde to oxidise to a still-usable five-chain carbon molecule, glutaric acid?

A lot of assumptions, but nobody with a mass spec......
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-27-2015, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Beefy View Post
Breaks down completely? Or is 24 hours the half-life? Or is 24 hours the time it takes for plants to take-up the product from the water column? Or is 24 hours the time it takes for the glutaraldehyde to oxidise to a still-usable five-chain carbon molecule, glutaric acid?

A lot of assumptions, but nobody with a mass spec......
Yeah, that's why I used the term "It is said"...

However, every time I've heard "it said", the assertion was that it broke down completely within 24 hours, and there was absolutely no carbon enhancing activity left...

I've even asked the question if anyone had any evidence as to which breakdown mechanisms are the prevalent ones in aquarium tanks... only crickets could be heard in response...

Clearly there's a lot we don't understand about glutaraldehyde in aquarium use.

edit:
Digging around in this thread:
https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...ad.php?t=92707

I found a link to an article about glutaraldehyde breakdown in river water:

http://link.springer.com/article/10....Fs002440010248

It gives the half-life of glut as 10.6 hours in aerobic river water, 7.7 in anerobic river water. However, sterile water caused no appreciable breakdown except at extreme pH over 31 days.

So, it is reactions with organics and/or living organisms that cause the breakdown, but I think we all knew that.. the half-life numbers are new to me.

Assuming our tank water is anything like aerobic river water, then we should see a 10.6 hour half-life.. In actuality, our tanks may be considerably more bio-active than river water, as the density of fish and bacteria is going to be higher.

Regardless, sticking with a 10.6 hour half-live would suggest that after 24 hours we are decayed by more than 2 half-lives, and about 20.8% of the original dose remains in the water after 24 hours. However, that's only the breakdown of gultaraldehyde into glutaric acid..

According to this MSDS:
http://www.inchem.org/documents/sids/sids/111308.pdf

Which quotes the same 10.6 hour half-life for glut to glutaric acid, but also says the glutaric acid is completely metabolized within 48 hours...

So, perhaps 48 hours is a better life-span for the CO2 producing effects of Glutaraldehyde/excel/etc than 24 hours...

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Last edited by mattinmd; 05-28-2015 at 03:15 AM. Reason: added much research..
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-28-2015, 04:47 AM
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If I remember correctly Seachem is the originator of the statement that Excel breaks down in about a day. It would be interesting to know how that happens, but apparently it is a fact that it does happen.

Since Seachem says to dose 5 ml per 10 gallons after a big water change it must be true that at that dosage Excel does not harm the fish or plants. That suggests that if you were to dose at that rate every day or two you would not harm the fish or plants. And, I know some people have done it. However, at high dosages like that I know that Vals do die back, but most eventually resume growing later. I haven't tried it since I like the results I get with Metricide, a glutaraldehyde product that works as an Excel substitute, when I dose at 2 ml per 10 gallons. (Actually about 10 ml per about 60 gallons of water.)

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-28-2015, 10:05 PM Thread Starter
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I'm going to look that metricide up for next time.


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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 05-28-2015, 11:11 PM
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Can you use Excel in a tank with CO2 to get rid of algae?

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