Deficiency in Saururus? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 03:06 AM Thread Starter
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Deficiency in Saururus?

Any thoughts on this? Zapins?

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post #2 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 12:38 PM
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Looks like iron, though a couple of other minerals will show similar- veins dark, blade pale.
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post #3 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Hi Diana - the substrate is ADA aquasoil. Set up is just a month old. And I dose the 180-gal tank with half tsp of CSM+B every other day. And none of the other plants are exhibiting signs of chlorosis. So I had ruled out Fe for now.
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post #4 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 05:09 PM
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There was a very recent post where the dark vein pattern was found to be normal (Zapins diagnosed it):

https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=855801

You are adding .2 ppm Fe (.1 ppm/day) each time, so it should not be iron, and your other plants are fine.

Perhaps for Zapins, you should document your total dosing regiment. I'm sure he'll be along soon to help...
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post #5 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 06:59 PM Thread Starter
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Hi imcmaster - the netted, veiny pattern on sword leaves seem normal and less troubled to me too.

More details on my set up.

KH is about 3-4 with 50/50 mix w/ RO.

Fert regime for the 180-gal:
After water change -
Day 1
2 tsp KNO3
2 tsp KSO4
1 tsp KH2PO4
3 tsp CaSO4
1 tsp MgSO4

Day 2
half tsp CSM+B

Day 3
2 tsp KNO3
2 tsp KSO4
1 tsp KH2PO4

Day 4
half tsp CSM+B

Day 5 - water change and repeat.
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post #6 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 08:21 PM
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I also have a 180g tank, and your recipe seemed different than mine:

Based on your values, in your 4 day cycle between WC, you are dosing:
NO3 - 18.72ppm (reasonable)
K - 33.38pm (high but reasonable?)
PO4 - 11.48ppm (very high?!)
Fe - 0.4ppm (low for EI but reasonable)

I don't want to suggest that this is a problem (I don't know), but those numbers seem strange:
NO3 (18.72): EI suggests 15-30ppm / water change cycle
K (33.38): EI suggests 15-30ppm / wc
PO4 (11.48): EI suggests 2.5-5.0ppm / wc
Fe (0.4): EI suggests 1-2ppm

It seems to me that Nitrates are reasonable, and K is high and PO4 quite highly dosed? Perhaps there was a rationale for this recipe (or I made a mistake)? Have you taken any recent NO3 or PO4 tests prior to a water change? And how large is your water change? I was hoping that seeing the dosing in ppm may make something jump out.
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post #7 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 10:04 PM Thread Starter
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Good points, imcmaster. You may be right.

Regarding K: I was dosing half as much K, but aquasoil has hardly any K and my indicator plants (Hygro Kompact) started showing CLASSIC K deficiency symptoms with pinholes on older leaves with a slight yellow ring around the pinholes. The hygro is also the only plant shedding leaves. So I doubled the dose. I may back off to 15-20 ppm if things stabilize.

Phosphate. I just recently increased to 1 tsp every other day. I know this is a lot. I was at half tsp every other day. I am just experimenting. I read a thread very recently about Aquasoil soaking up P when new. So I wanted to compensate for that. There is not much GSA, so I'm not trying to fight it. There is no algae, actually. Knock on driftwood! Perfectly happy backing off to half my current dose, but I want to give my experiment a couple of weeks to see what happens. Certainly does not contribute to algae!

Fe. There is plenty in the substrate, so I am going easy. I am a bit gun shy about Fe. I've had issues with burning the tips of my Ammania with Fe on the high end of EI. I repeated that exercise 2 or 3 times and got to burn the tips each time. Will not stick my finger in that socket again.

But Fe is also just a proxy for other traces. Don't want to skimp on those. I may go to half tsp every day.

I do not have test kits for anything other than KH.

Here is the tank from a couple of days ago:

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post #8 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-04-2015, 11:14 PM
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Beautiful tank.
Until zapins comes, I'll throw out one possibility (but I really don't know). I did follow the thread (Extreme PO4 consumption?) I think it was called, where the new aquasoil soaked up the PO4---) for quite some time. Could it also be soaking up the sulphates (SO4--), and if so, could it be a sulfur deficiency? The Seachem deficiency chart shows two reasons for dark green veins and light leaves: iron and sulfur.
But, wait for zapins! He is quite remarkable at this sort of diagnosis.
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post #9 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-05-2015, 12:08 AM Thread Starter
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A little additional info - the tips of Rotalas (macrandra, Enie, magenta, and colorata) look a little pinched and small. R. indica and sp. Bangladesh look fine. May be Calcium. May be Boron due to the light trace regimen.

I've got sulfur from all that K2SO4, CaSO4, and MgSO4…I have no clue if aquasoil soaks that up too.

I've got super bright BML LEDs that I've dimmed down to 60%. But I think I may have to turn it down even more. PAR meter is on order and won't know where I stand until I measure. Sounds like I could clamp down on nutrient demand.
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post #10 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-05-2015, 12:27 AM
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Quote:
...the netted, veiny pattern on sword leaves seem normal...
I have grown several Echinodorus, and had uniform colored leaves, though the strong veins might make it look multi-colored- it is just a shadow.
I've grown Lizard's Tail (Saururus cernuus) in my pond (emersed) and the leaves were uniform color, so I do see that there is something going on. Not sure what, though.
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post #11 of 11 (permalink) Old 05-05-2015, 12:40 AM Thread Starter
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Agree, Diana. Most plants are growing really well and fast.

It's just these:

Hygro - pinholes and leaf shedding. Should be fixed with new, high K dosage. New leaves coming up are HUGE and healthy looking. A week after increasing K to 30+ ppm, I am still getting shedding of lower leaves. I have a dense street of Hygro Kompact and when I run my fingers thru it, I am still getting leaf shedding and all shed leaves have classic K-deficiency pinholes in them. Guessing once an older leaf has been tapped for its K content, it will shed, even if the plant is no longer K deficient. ??

Some Rotalas: pinched tips

Saururus: green veins.

Eichornia diversifolia: some tips have turned dark. Most are fine and growing really well. But I think this may be from partial shading.

Last edited by Saxa Tilly; 05-07-2015 at 05:43 PM. Reason: Added info about Hygro and K deficiency symptoms.
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