Micronutrient Interaction Wheel - Please Help - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-12-2009, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Micronutrient Interaction Wheel - Please Help

A while ago someone on here posted a link to a very informational diagram.

It was a wheel, similar to a color wheel, that outlined micronutrient interactions in a very concise way, but I cannot find it. I believe it was called something with chrys or chris and wheel, but searches show nothing.

If you know what I am referring to, and can post a link, please do.

TIA.
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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2009, 06:20 AM Thread Starter
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Bump, someone must remember, and I still can't find it.

TIA
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2009, 03:26 PM
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Are you perhaps talking about micronutrient availability at different pH values?

I don't know of any micro interaction wheel, and I studied that stuff. Sorry.


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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2009, 05:28 PM Thread Starter
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Are you perhaps talking about micronutrient availability at different pH values?

I don't know of any micro interaction wheel, and I studied that stuff. Sorry.
Darn, I thought one of the long-time members would remember. It showed things like Calcium/Magnesium and other micro antithesis, which I cannot recall, hence my need.

Thank you for the reply anyhow.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2009, 07:14 PM
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Virtually all of us dose micronutrients, trace elements, in a mix, so we dose them all together in a fixed ratio, according to what the manufacturer puts in his mix. I have never seen any demonstration that there are any "micro antithesis" problems. Calcium and magnesium are the major components of GH, general hardness of the water, where most of us just let the tap water supply whatever ratio it has. There have been theories about needing a specific ratio of those two, but I'm pretty sure those theories were found not to be true. So, any chart, as you described it, would most likely not be valid in any case.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2009, 07:24 PM Thread Starter
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Virtually all of us dose micronutrients, trace elements, in a mix, so we dose them all together in a fixed ratio, according to what the manufacturer puts in his mix. I have never seen any demonstration that there are any "micro antithesis" problems. Calcium and magnesium are the major components of GH, general hardness of the water, where most of us just let the tap water supply whatever ratio it has. There have been theories about needing a specific ratio of those two, but I'm pretty sure those theories were found not to be true. So, any chart, as you described it, would most likely not be valid in any case.
I am looking for this information, for purposes outside the scope of planted tanks. AFAIK, and I could be wrong, Mg is required for Calcium uptake and must be present at correct ratios , or it inhibits Ca uptake by plants - this is def. true in the case of corals, these are the kinds of associations that were shown in the chart, as far as I remember.

Below is a link that supports your claim of the ratio not being vital in yields:

http://www.uwex.edu/ces/crops/calmagra.htm

and here is a link linking tabacco leaf quality to N, Mg and Ca ratios:

http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/EA9700635.htm

I am not sure there is a clear digital answer for the question,
but I would like to still find this beast if it is out there.
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-15-2009, 10:25 PM
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Hi putty

The following is in an outline format concerning nutrients for plants. It is not a wheel or anything like that, but it may help you with your project. I hope it helps!
http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/a...lizers/map.htm

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2009, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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Thank you.

That image is incredible.

I am increasingly thinking this wheel may have been relating to corals on a r**f site.
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2009, 05:47 PM
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Left C,

I don't see on that amazing chart who authored it, name, company, copyright, univerity, what ever? I would like to use this chart, but without citation it's not usable. The link itself goes to a mattress company?

Thank you!
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-16-2009, 10:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Left C View Post
Hi putty

The following is in an outline format concerning nutrients for plants. It is not a wheel or anything like that, but it may help you with your project. I hope it helps!
http://www.finostrom.com.gr/images/a...lizers/map.htm

Left C
A lot of these so called interactions are wrong and in many cases, useless without quanatative data, eg, ppms of K+, or Ca++ ppms.

There's also a "nutrient" missing from this that's not normally a nutrient in terrestrial systems, but is the most limiting nutrients in submersed system.

Why is this missing?

Some rather huge massive errors are going on here, many of them and pure speculation at best.

Limiting critical concentrations, see Liebig's law of the minimum and Gerloff's 1966 paper are far more important, and also apply to to the observations and test, not mere dogma and speculation from folks with little plant Science background.

I have never seen a single excess NO3 study for example on any submersed plant. But it's suggested here. Without any evidence, without a single shed of experimental testing etc.

What good is this table without such basic information?
I can go on and on and pick this table apart for virtually every nutrient.
These appear to be mostly from ag studies on specific crops.
Not submersed plants.

Preference does not imply an effect on rate of growth, just where most of the nutrients came from, the research on aquatic plants is not definite there, Cedergreen and Madsen (2001) suggested no difference in rates of growth for N or P in the water column or the roots for example, they even cut the roots off and still had similar rates of growth. Barko and smart are often cited for sediment difference/preference, but this was for only a few species of weeds. the other researchers found that most aquatic plants are opportunistic, and that is the general opinion held today.

Careful with visual aids and how you think they mean something.
This can lead to more issues than less ones.


Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-17-2009, 12:15 AM
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Left C,

I don't see on that amazing chart who authored it, name, company, copyright, university, what ever? I would like to use this chart, but without citation it's not usable. The link itself goes to a mattress company?

Thank you!
Hi Nix

When that chart came out, it had a simple name like "Overview" or "Overview Map." Maybe you could find it with those terms.

contact information: [email protected]

Here is one of the early places that I saw it: https://www.plantedtank.net/forums/ge...tml#post441495

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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 04-17-2009, 12:49 AM Thread Starter
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I am applying a lot of this to non-aquatic plants, and the image, at least organizes the information nicely for the way my mind works. The deficiency symptoms seem correct from the rudimentary checking, but none of it documented. It would be nice if the links went to supporting information on each statement.

Thank you all for the help.
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