Dosing dry fert for 180gal Help!!! - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 6 (permalink) Old 02-13-2009, 02:29 AM Thread Starter
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Dosing dry fert for 180gal Help!!!

I was dosing 1 tablespoon of KNO3 per week or 1 teaspoon every other day. But I was having lots of hair algae problem. I tried excel treatment but it didn't work at all.

Here is my new dosing regimes for my 180 high light and heavy planted tank. What do you guys think?

Tank:
Pressurized CO2 at pH 6.8
Tek T5 light at 8 hrs
Eco complete
Plants: downoi, narrow java fern, bolbotis, subwassertang, trident java fern, taiwan moss, flame moss, hygro defformis, A. reineckii, nana peitite, cordata var. ‘Rosanervig', Echinodorus 'Red Devil'
fish: None except for snails!!!

180 Gal Dosing Regimes
(Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday)

25% H20 change-weekly
1.5 Teaspoon-KN03 3x a week
3/8 Teaspoon-KH2P04 3x a week
2.25 Teaspoon – GH Booster once a week




Please help me!!!

Thanks...
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post #2 of 6 (permalink) Old 02-13-2009, 03:59 AM
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Before you get too deep into adjusting your fertilizer dosing you need to work on your CO2 system. Plants are mostly carbon, so they need a good steady adequate source of carbon to grow at the rate the light intensity drives them to. CO2 is that source. The problem is that measuring how much CO2 we are "dosing" is very difficult. You apparently are relying on a pH controller to tell you that you have enough CO2. That doesn't work. The equation relating ppm of CO2 to KH and pH is not usable for a typical planted aquarium, because that equation is based on nothing else being in the water to affect the pH except CO2, and that isn't the case with typical aquarium water. A drop checker works much better, but isn't very accurate nor very quick to respond to changes in CO2 concentration. What a drop checker will do is let you get reasonably close to a good concentration of CO2, so you can use that as a starting point for further increases in CO2 bubble rate until the plants and fish tell you you are at the optimum concentration.

With a 180 gallon tank you have a second very big problem - that of getting the CO2 you inject to be distributed throughout the tank. For that you need very good water circulation in the tank, and possibly multiple injection points for the CO2.

Further complicating the problem is that running at a high CO2 concentration requires that the tank water have a good concentration of O2 also, so the fish can best tolerate the CO2. That means maintaining good water surface rippling.

Once you get all of that set up and working, then you can look to the Estimative Index method of dosing fertilizers for guidance on dosages of fertilizers.

Hoppy
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post #3 of 6 (permalink) Old 02-13-2009, 02:50 PM
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You didn't mention how much light. We don't know if your running 160 watts, 320 watts or more for that 8 hr period.

Looking at you plants, most don't have super high light needs. I would reduce your lighting (2 bulbs if they are the 80 watts, 2 or 4 bulbs if they are 39 watt each) while you adjust your CO2. This will make it easier to reach a balance.

Once you reach a balance, and want to introduce more light, you may go through a similar phase of adjustment of CO2 and ferts to match the lighting.

John



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post #4 of 6 (permalink) Old 02-13-2009, 03:12 PM
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Ditto what other folks said.

If you have hair algae, and are dosing, have plenty of light(too much), CO2 is pretty much all that is left.

You are also only doing a measly 25% per week water change.
Do 50-70%, maybe 2x a week until things clear.

Add Amano shrimp. Add SAE's, anything that will eat algae.
Get enough CO2 to stop the new growth of algae.
Get some more faster growign plants for now, then remove them later.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #5 of 6 (permalink) Old 02-15-2009, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
Before you get too deep into adjusting your fertilizer dosing you need to work on your CO2 system. Plants are mostly carbon, so they need a good steady adequate source of carbon to grow at the rate the light intensity drives them to. CO2 is that source. The problem is that measuring how much CO2 we are "dosing" is very difficult. You apparently are relying on a pH controller to tell you that you have enough CO2. That doesn't work. The equation relating ppm of CO2 to KH and pH is not usable for a typical planted aquarium, because that equation is based on nothing else being in the water to affect the pH except CO2, and that isn't the case with typical aquarium water. A drop checker works much better, but isn't very accurate nor very quick to respond to changes in CO2 concentration. What a drop checker will do is let you get reasonably close to a good concentration of CO2, so you can use that as a starting point for further increases in CO2 bubble rate until the plants and fish tell you you are at the optimum concentration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post

With a 180 gallon tank you have a second very big problem - that of getting the CO2 you inject to be distributed throughout the tank. For that you need very good water circulation in the tank, and possibly multiple injection points for the CO2.

Further complicating the problem is that running at a high CO2 concentration requires that the tank water have a good concentration of O2 also, so the fish can best tolerate the CO2. That means maintaining good water surface rippling.

Once you get all of that set up and working, then you can look to the Estimative Index method of dosing fertilizers for guidance on dosages of fertilizers.


I agreed with your points but I really do not like to run testes in any of my aquariums. I will run only if it is a necessity. I think you’re correct with not having enough CO2 in the tank and might need multi injection areas. At this moment, I can’t do that. Instead, I have added more circulation in the tank and O2. Hopefully, that will distribute CO2 around the tank more evenly in the tank.



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Originally Posted by jjp2 View Post
You didn't mention how much light. We don't know if your running 160 watts, 320 watts or more for that 8 hr period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjp2 View Post

Looking at you plants, most don't have super high light needs. I would reduce your lighting (2 bulbs if they are the 80 watts, 2 or 4 bulbs if they are 39 watt each) while you adjust your CO2. This will make it easier to reach a balance.

Once you reach a balance, and want to introduce more light, you may go through a similar phase of adjustment of CO2 and ferts to match the lighting.


I have 240 watts of light in my tank. I don’t think you can measure wattage in a tank this size to compare to wattage per gallon. I know that is a little more than 1 watt per gallon but all plants in the tank exhibited bushier grown and redness in their leaves. I had Blyxa Japonica it also exhibited red in their leaves as another indicator of high light. Also, I do not have a lux meter to measure my light intensity.

I will try to cut back on the light by dropping the lighting down from 240 watts to 160 watts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
Ditto what other folks said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post

If you have hair algae, and are dosing, have plenty of light(too much), CO2 is pretty much all that is left.

You are also only doing a measly 25% per week water change.
Do 50-70%, maybe 2x a week until things clear.

Add Amano shrimp. Add SAE's, anything that will eat algae.
Get enough CO2 to stop the new growth of algae.
Get some more faster growign plants for now, then remove them later.

Regards,
Tom Barr


I agreed with CO2 is the cause for hair algae in this tank.

I will bump up my water change to 50% per 2x week until they are gone. But after these water changes, do I do any dosing? And continue my CO2 injection, correct?

I will introduce faster growing stem plants to up take more nutrients.

Thanks for everyone advices… keep them coming..
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post #6 of 6 (permalink) Old 02-15-2009, 04:42 PM
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In general..............so called faster growing plants do not really grow faster per se, they just are better at getting, tolerating CO2 issues.

You have a CO2 issue, light is good, EI will allow you to avoid test kits forever.
It's much easier to work on a large tank when it's 1/2 full and draining, refilling, use a comb and trim away any hard to detangle pklants, add plants that are easier to clean the algae off for a bit, then add the ones you like back later.

Plants are available for sale, trade etc all the time

Good CO2, and pruning will help the most.

You might end up eyeballing CO2.
Never think you know the CO2 is "good"
That is a pipe dream.

Many do and go off on long goose chases.
95% or more of issues are CO2 related.

Note, reducing light also reduces CO2 demand also.
So that can be modified in many cases to solve a higher CO2 demand that you can manage.

Obviously if you go too low, no good..............

But lower light = easier management for this very reason: easier to target CO2.

And if you are in that crowd that like to claim lower nutrients = no algae(baloney....... but that's the "flat earth" crowd too) or think that some plants do and look better with low nutrients(also baloney, I can and have easily shown this to be false with every single species they have ever speculated.........go figure), still, if that is your goal and you find it "works" for you personally, then less light will achieve that goal far better

If you start with a speculation/hypothesis, look at other simple ways at where plant growth all starts: light.

Then go to CO2.

Do not be a "smug know it all" and think you know it all about CO2. You will get burnt and most do. Some weasel around it by reducing say PO4, this can strongly limit CO2 demand 2-3x depending on the intensity, but too much limitation really can cause issues and GSA. This indirectly limits CO2.

These folks believe that they do not need as much CO2, or think they have plenty, maybe think fish are stressed by it etc, that low PO4 is some how better and non Toxic(PO4 is extremely non toxic to us, fish and plants at insane levels FYI).

Point is, they are missing the indirect effects about why algae is present and growing. It's not limiting PO4 that is reducing their algae, it's stable non limiting CO2 demand from plants. Plants are more limited by PO4 than CO2.

However, when we test their theory, we see that we can add plenty of PO4, and never have algae issues, GSA etc either..........as long as we also account for CO2.

This model explains both observations and is confirmed by good careful testing. Their model does not explain how/why the aquariums with 3 ppm of PO4 and good CO2 does not have algae.

Thus such "theories", must be rejected and assumed to be false.
They do not explain a test where the CO2 is independent
Folks are tempted to rush to conclusion and do not test their theories.
We cannot blame folks for it, but they should also realize the error.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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