What other fert in the ei scheme raises nitrates? - The Planted Tank Forum
 
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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 03:20 AM Thread Starter
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What other fert in the ei scheme raises nitrates?

KH2P04 or K2SO4?

I never had any reason to check my nitrates since beginning the EI fert routine over 2 years ago. All of my plants grew super and my fish were all happy.

Untill I recieved some Limnophila Aromatica. The tops were nice and green even close to the light. I had read some places that leaning out the nitrates would bring out the reds. So I decided to check.

Now like most of you it's real hard for me to discern between 40 and 80 ppm with a API test kit so well just say it was up there.

I vagueky remember reading at a prior time that another component on the EI system added to nitrates.

Is this true? Cause I want some purple tops!!!


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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 04:01 AM
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Neither. You'd need an "N" which happens to be conspicuously missing from both K2SO4 and KH2PO4.

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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 04:07 AM
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Maybe you're thinking of KNO3 for nitrates, which also adds potassium, as do K2SO4 and KH2PO4.
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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 04:31 AM Thread Starter
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Makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imeridian View Post
Neither. You'd need an "N" which happens to be conspicuously missing from both K2SO4 and KH2PO4.
Potassium must have been it. Well, looks like im just gonna have to cut back the KNO3.

Thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brohawk View Post
Maybe you're thinking of KNO3 for nitrates, which also adds potassium, as do K2SO4 and KH2PO4.


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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 12:44 PM
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Check your filters as well. I used to run high nitrates a lot until I got more serious about cleaning out my filters.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 01:59 PM
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Heavy fish loads + heavy feedings will bump up those Nitrates as well - it's basically just fish poop after all!


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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 02:57 PM
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L. aromatica is a polymorphic plant - it has several variations, not all of which include the reddish colors. When I had it mine were always reddish colored near the top, but the cuttings I purchased were red when I got them. I have seen this plant used by others, when it was just green. I have also seen it with varying "fullness", from almost wispy to big vigorous, thick stalks, like I had. So, it may be yours just isn't one of those that has the colors you want. Since this is a rapidly growing weed, beautiful, but still a weed, you can usually buy it from others here at a reasonable price.

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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 03:38 PM
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It grows deep red/purple in a high fish load tank and also looked better with PC vs HQI lighting or a mix of both. It's fairly green on top but nice deep purple under with my tanks at home. The red colored tank has a load of fish and a load of ferts added, pretty high in NO3.

But other plants are deep red at home also. Others are not so red with the high fish load tank. I do not think I can generalize as much.

Still, simple question here before we get started: have you calibrated said NO3 test kit?

Yes? No?

I've seen then read 40-80ppm and then the real reference was only 10ppm...........

In general, high traces, GH additions, good high K+, moderate nice color lights seem to give some of the better colors. Which pretty much says good general non limiting nutrients/CO2. This species I have huge stems of and the color is reddish on tops and deep purple under neath, it also grows very well under those conditions.

Some folks want huge fat stems, 5" daimeter, some want color, some folks think the less NO3 the better.

I've seen enough red eyepopping color to know it's not just NO3.
Rate of growth also plays a large role in any color develoment.

You can simply do a larger % water change to knock the NO3 down to the 10-30ppm range in about 30 minutes. End of that issue provided it is an issue and the test kit is correct.

Note, at the higher ranges where the scales are larger with test kits, you can cut the smaple down in 1/2(or 1/4, or by a factor 10), by simply adding 1/2 of the sample (say 5 mls) to DI water(say another 5mls of DI water). Now you have 1/2 the NO3 in the sample.

Now you can test in the range that the test kit measures better.
But calibrate them before changing anything in your routine or using it to make assumptions and observations.

I use Flourite in the high load tank where it's redder, the tank is larger, and it's a greener color in the ADA AS. I could allow the NO3 to drop and see, but at a price.

I'd rather chose a less picky variable plant if I'm after a red color.
You try and see. Rotala wallichii is a beautiful red plant, Eustralis, or P stellata now is also a nice plant with somewhat similar colors, pl,enty of red species to chose from, fine needle or med or wide rossette leaves etc.

I have L pantanal that gets blood red in one tank at home, but not in the other where the light is different(HQI vs HQI+PC), no other dosing differences, sediment, tap water, routines etc are done. Maybe it's the light from the FL's. Seems that most nice colors are brought out with that/those light types to me vs HQI. Might be a thing where the HQI wash the color out some, and that lower more even light helps better.

I can see variation where some plants are green and some are red within the same tank. So NO3 alone is not everything.

Light, rate of growth, spread of the light, etc, GH, whatever...............many potential things that have not been considered really.

Low NO3 is popular because many like that idea, not because it's some universal truth. It can help in some cases, but not in others. Point is, can we change color other ways? The answer seems pretty clearly to me that it's "yes". I'm not interested in something I have to closely monitor to keep within that range. Many also act as if NO3 is some horrid poison, NO3 is rather non toxic, CO2 is far more toxic and kills more fish/causes more algae than NO3 ever will.

What type of lighting do you have?
A. reineckii is a nice really red plant also.
It pretty much stays that nice red all the time.

Regards,
Tom Barr




Regards,
Tom Barr
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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 05:27 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tazcrash69 View Post
Check your filters as well. I used to run high nitrates a lot until I got more serious about cleaning out my filters.
I have 1 3" discus im trying to find a home for 4 otocinclus a ~5" royal pleco a weather loach and 1 3+ year old cardinal tetra that wont die. I feed every day or so but not that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JenThePlantGeek View Post
Heavy fish loads + heavy feedings will bump up those Nitrates as well - it's basically just fish poop after all!
That is no good. The reason I purchased the plant was for the red/purple color.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoppy View Post
L. aromatica is a polymorphic plant - it has several variations, not all of which include the reddish colors. When I had it mine were always reddish colored near the top, but the cuttings I purchased were red when I got them. I have seen this plant used by others, when it was just green. I have also seen it with varying "fullness", from almost wispy to big vigorous, thick stalks, like I had. So, it may be yours just isn't one of those that has the colors you want. Since this is a rapidly growing weed, beautiful, but still a weed, you can usually buy it from others here at a reasonable price.
How does one go about calabrating their test kit? The stalks are pretty lush I would say 2 1/2"-3" in dia. They were sent to me in cold weather and needed a little tlc after I got them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by plantbrain View Post
It grows deep red/purple in a high fish load tank and also looked better with PC vs HQI lighting or a mix of both. It's fairly green on top but nice deep purple under with my tanks at home. The red colored tank has a load of fish and a load of ferts added, pretty high in NO3.

But other plants are deep red at home also. Others are not so red with the high fish load tank. I do not think I can generalize as much.

Still, simple question here before we get started: have you calibrated said NO3 test kit?

Yes? No?

I've seen then read 40-80ppm and then the real reference was only 10ppm...........

In general, high traces, GH additions, good high K+, moderate nice color lights seem to give some of the better colors. Which pretty much says good general non limiting nutrients/CO2. This species I have huge stems of and the color is reddish on tops and deep purple under neath, it also grows very well under those conditions.

Some folks want huge fat stems, 5" daimeter, some want color, some folks think the less NO3 the better.

I've seen enough red eyepopping color to know it's not just NO3.
Rate of growth also plays a large role in any color develoment.

You can simply do a larger % water change to knock the NO3 down to the 10-30ppm range in about 30 minutes. End of that issue provided it is an issue and the test kit is correct.

Note, at the higher ranges where the scales are larger with test kits, you can cut the smaple down in 1/2(or 1/4, or by a factor 10), by simply adding 1/2 of the sample (say 5 mls) to DI water(say another 5mls of DI water). Now you have 1/2 the NO3 in the sample.

Now you can test in the range that the test kit measures better.
But calibrate them before changing anything in your routine or using it to make assumptions and observations.

I use Flourite in the high load tank where it's redder, the tank is larger, and it's a greener color in the ADA AS. I could allow the NO3 to drop and see, but at a price.

I'd rather chose a less picky variable plant if I'm after a red color.
You try and see. Rotala wallichii is a beautiful red plant, Eustralis, or P stellata now is also a nice plant with somewhat similar colors, pl,enty of red species to chose from, fine needle or med or wide rossette leaves etc.

I have L pantanal that gets blood red in one tank at home, but not in the other where the light is different(HQI vs HQI+PC), no other dosing differences, sediment, tap water, routines etc are done. Maybe it's the light from the FL's. Seems that most nice colors are brought out with that/those light types to me vs HQI. Might be a thing where the HQI wash the color out some, and that lower more even light helps better.

I can see variation where some plants are green and some are red within the same tank. So NO3 alone is not everything.

Light, rate of growth, spread of the light, etc, GH, whatever...............many potential things that have not been considered really.

Low NO3 is popular because many like that idea, not because it's some universal truth. It can help in some cases, but not in others. Point is, can we change color other ways? The answer seems pretty clearly to me that it's "yes". I'm not interested in something I have to closely monitor to keep within that range. Many also act as if NO3 is some horrid poison, NO3 is rather non toxic, CO2 is far more toxic and kills more fish/causes more algae than NO3 ever will.

What type of lighting do you have?
A. reineckii is a nice really red plant also.
It pretty much stays that nice red all the time.

Regards,
Tom Barr


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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 10:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith782 View Post
... How does one go about calibrating their test kit? ...

Directions for Making NO3 and PO4 Reference Solutions III

You will need the following:
- 1 liter of distilled water
- 500 mL graduated cylinder
- 50 mL graduated cylinder
- 1 mL or 3 mL pipette or another device to measure small mLs of solutions
- scales that are accurate to two decimal places
- KNO3 and KH2PO4 dry fertilizers.



Here's a way to make 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50 ppm NO3 reference solutions:

Add 0.70 grams of KNO3 to 429 mL of distilled. This makes a 1000 ppm NO3 solution. (It's really a 1000.72 ppm NO3 solution.)

Add 2 mL of the 1000 ppm solution to 18 mL of distilled water. This makes 20 mL of a 100 ppm KNO3 solution.

Add 15 mL of the 100 ppm solution to 15 mL of distilled water. This makes 30 mL of a 50 ppm KNO3 solution.
Note: You can use this for the 50 ppm NO3 reference solution.

To make a 10 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 2 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 8 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 10 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 20 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 4 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 6 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 20 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 30 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 6 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 4 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 30 ppm NO3 solution.

To make a 40 ppm NO3 solution:
Add 8 mL of the 50 ppm solution to 2 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 40 ppm NO3 solution.




Here's a way to make 0.1, 0.2, 0.5, 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 4.0 and 5.0 ppm PO4 reference solutions:

Add 0.70g of KH2PO4 to 489 mL of distilled water. This makes the 1000 ppm PO4 solution. (It's really a 999.04 ppm PO4 solution.)

Add 1 mL of the 1000 ppm solution to 9 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 100 ppm PO4 solution.

Add 2 mL of the 100 ppm solution to 18 mL of distilled water. This makes 20 mL of a 10 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 0.1 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 1 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 99 mL of distilled water. This makes 100 mL of a 0.1 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 0.2 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 1 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 49 mL of distilled water. This makes 50 mL of a 0.2 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 0.5 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 1 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 19 mL of distilled water. This makes 20 mL of a 0.5 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 1.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 1 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 9 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 1.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 2.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 2 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 8 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 2.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 3.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 3 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 7 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 3.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 4.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 4 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 6 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 4.0 ppm PO4 solution.

To make a 5.0 ppm PO4 solution:
Add 5 mL of the 10 ppm solution to 5 mL of distilled water. This makes 10 mL of a 5.0 ppm PO4 solution.

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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-19-2008, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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Excellent.


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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 12-20-2008, 12:43 AM
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LeftC's post above should be a stand alone sticky. This question comes up all of the time, and I always have a problem finding his post, even though it is on more than one forum.

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